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Old 10-07-2003, 04:07 PM   #31
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I totally agree Klaus, both are elected officials. Both thrive on violence, as seen from each's terrorist past.
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Old 10-07-2003, 04:15 PM   #32
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Klaus,


"Mr. Arafat is also a democratic elected leader of the Palestinensians - the only one who can say this about himself.
Does this automatically make a good gouy out of him?"

Can you name the people who ran against Arafat in the election and if so, did they really have a chance.

Palestine is not a "true" Democracy. Arafat's electoral wins are closer to Saddam's than to Sharon's.

In any event, I trust and respect the Israely voter and the Israely system of government.

If most Israely's believed Sharon to be a terrorist, he would not be in power. On the other hand, most Palestinians condone suicide bombing, so its not surprising that they would support a terrorist leader, regardless of the validity of the elections they have had.
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Old 10-07-2003, 04:37 PM   #33
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Other's think Sharon's tactics are terrorism.

http://www.jppi.org/assassinations.html

Jews for Peace in Palestine and Israel (JPPI)

Act Now to Stop Israel's Policy of Extrajudicial Killings
Israel has adopted a policy of extrajudicial killings (or assassinations) of Palestinian activists in an attempt to suppress the current Palestinian uprising against its brutal military occupation of the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem. As of August 6, 2001, between 40-60 Palestinians have been murdered as a result of these extrajudicial killings, at least 13 of whom were innocent bystanders. Extrajudicial killings are often implemented by a missile strike from a helicopter gunship, wreaking havoc in Palestinian residential areas and causing casualties to civilians. For instance, Israel's assassination of two Hamas activists in Nablus on July 31, 2001 also killed two journalists and two children aged 7 and 10.

Israel's policy of assassinating Palestinian activists is illegal according to both Israeli law and international law. Israel has outlawed the death penalty; however, its policy of extrajudicial killings allows it to circumvent this prohibition and execute people by other means. Worse yet, Israel is executing people without charging them with having committed a specific crime; without furnishing any evidence as to their "guilt"; and without the due process of a free and fair trial. Vaguely worded assurances from Israeli security agencies (which readily admit to torturing Palestinians to extract information) that those targeted for assassination are guilty of "acts of violence and terror" are hardly credible. This policy seriously undermines Israel's claim to being a democratic state based on the rule of law.

Furthermore, Israel's policy of assassinating Palestinian activists is in clear violation of customary international law that protects basic human rights such as the right to a free and fair trial. The policy also violates the Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, to which Israel is a High Contracting Party. Article 3(d) of this Geneva Convention prohibits at any time and in any place "the passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples." It is time to hold Israel accountable to its commitments and to international norms of civilized behavior.

In carrying out its extrajudicial killings, Israel also is violating U.S. law by employing U.S.-supplied weaponry, including Apache helicopter gunships, in a manner which is proscribed by the U.S. Foreign Assistance and Arms Export Control Acts. United States law stipulates, inter alia, that any defense articles and defense services to any country shall be furnished "solely for internal security, [or] for legitimate self-defense" (22U.S.C. 2302 and 2754). Israel's policy of extrajudicial killings, designed to eliminate Palestine's political leadership and to cow the Palestinian people into submission to Israel's military occupation, hardly qualifies as legitimate self-defense.

Because Israel's policy of extrajudicial killings is illegal, immoral, counter-productive to establishing peace and ultimately inimical to achieving "security", the U.S. Department of State has condemned this practice repeatedly and sharply. For instance, the State Department "strongly deplored" Israel's extrajudicial killings in Nablus on July 31, 2001 and described it as "excessive," "an escalation," and "highly provocative."

Israel's policy of extrajudicial killings is ultimately counter-productive to its own long-term interests in peace and security, and to the overall stability of the region. The Israeli government claims that its policy of extrajudicial killings is necessary to ensure its security against "terrorists"--Israel's term for any Palestinian who resists its military occupation. However, this policy is short-sighted: By killing Palestinian activists and innocent bystanders, Israel will only succeed in embittering Palestinians more (if this is possible) and increasing their will to resist the occupation. History has proven time and again that it is impossible to kill an idea. No matter how many Palestinian activists Israel murders, it will not succeed in quelling the desire of the Palestinian people to live in freedom, dignity and peace.

Therefore, as American Jews who support a just, comprehensive and lasting peace, Jews for Peace in Palestine and Israel (JPPI) urges all Americans to contact their Members of Congress and ask them to support a "Sense of Congress" resolution calling upon Israel to halt immediately its illegal policy of extrajudicial killings. Below is a model letter that you can copy and email, fax, or send by regular mail to your Members of Congress and "talking points" that you can use when calling your Congressional offices.

That number is much increased.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
865 Israelis and 2,491 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000.

5,887 Israelis and 23,671 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000.

1 Israeli home has been destroyed by Palestinians and 2,202 Palestinian homes have been completely destroyed (14,436 partially destroyed) since September 29, 2000

They both IMO the wrong track to ending the violence and safety.
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Old 10-07-2003, 05:25 PM   #34
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Scarletwine,

I remind you that Israel is a democracy and the majority of the population elected and support Sharon. The IDF does not target innocent civilians. If that were the IDF goal, it could have killed all 3 million Palestinians 35 years ago. On the other hand, if Humas and Hezbolah had the capability to kill most or all the Jews in Israel, they would not hesitate to do so.
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Old 10-07-2003, 06:18 PM   #35
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OK...here goes nothing....

The article that is posted above comes from the JPPI. This is the Jews for Peace in Palestine.

[Q]Jews for Peace in Palestine and Israel was recently in the news when Israeli immigration authorities refused entry to a nine-person U.S. congressional-staff delegation co-sponsored by JPPI and American Muslims for Jerusalem (AMJ). The AMJ is a project sponsored by the American Muslim Alliance (AMA), the American Muslim Council (AMC) and the Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR), among others. CAIR grew out of the Hamas in 1994 and two of the three founding directors of CAIR occupied senior positions in the Islamic Association for Palestine, a front group for Hamas. In 1998, at a rally in Brooklyn cosponsored by CAIR, one speaker referred to Jews as "descendants of the apes." Similarly, the AMA held a convention at which Holocaust revisionist literature was circulated. The AMC, meanwhile, spends its time and money routinely declaring that Hamas "is not a terrorist group" and has hosted a speaker who praised suicide bombers, urging support for such "martyrdom operations." The AMC's deputy director, Issa Smith, told the Los Angeles Times on January 24, 1991, "Often we say that we are not against Jews, but against Zionists, those who had the goal of creating a state run by Jews." [/Q]

So lets see, it is ok to associate one's self with racists who do not believe the holocaust was that bad. It is ok to ally oneself with organizations that praise suicide bombers. It is ok to ally oneself with former hamas leadership?

I am sure there are better organizations to use to make points than the JPPI...or at least ones that are not hanging with organizations that promote racism.
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Old 10-07-2003, 06:52 PM   #36
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Horrors! I can do without this anti-Semitic . That's ugly.
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Old 10-07-2003, 08:01 PM   #37
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Dread, can you recommend a good source for Israeli news? Thanks. The only source I currently have is the Israeli embassy in Washington.
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Old 10-07-2003, 11:24 PM   #38
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I'm not Dread, but I like the Ha'aretz newspaper. It is a leftist Israeli paper.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/
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Old 10-07-2003, 11:36 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
OK...here goes nothing....

I am sure there are better organizations to use to make points than the JPPI...or at least ones that are not hanging with organizations that promote racism.
My bad, I should have done more research on the org.

However I do have other sights within the Israeli Peace contingent (see Pilgers latest doc.) within Israel that condemn what Sharon is doing, including some families of victims of suicide bombers.

I'm truly tired of not choosing sides, Israel is the stronger nation , buoyed by our 10 B a year and the aggressor in taking more land, they should acquise more. Why not give a separate state? the violence would most likely end and those that defy it would be condemned by both sides.

Because Sharon is greedy and wants more land like a primitive leader and thinks the Palestinians are slaves. He defies us and all wwe wish for the Mideast?
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Old 10-08-2003, 12:01 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klaus
I think we all here agree that terrorism can't be accepted. All of is think of Mr. Arafat if we here Israel + Terrorism.

But i think what Mr. Sharon does is terrorism too - as revenge he uses the army and kills people where he thinks they are connected with terrorism.
This is far away from what i think could be called justice or defense.

Klaus

Mr. Sharon does is terrorism too





The Bush Administration and many Americans refuse to even look at this.

Isralies on the front lines have the courage to tell the truth.


Quote:
Listen to the pilots
By David Grossman

Now that the furor over the pilots' declaration has abated a bit, perhaps the time has come to listen attentively to the essence of what they wanted to say in their protest. Even if, in the end, "the voice of the masses" silences the pilots and even if some of them retract their protest, there is still validity and importance to what they have said. Basic fairness also says that a government and a people that send their sons to carry out the difficult and sometimes dirty work of this particular war on their behalf must listen, for once, in an unbiased way to what the people who are doing these things in their name are saying.

The bottom line of the pilots' message is that if the Palestinians are currently capable of carrying out painful attacks on Israel and Israeli citizens, the war that is raging is still, ultimately, a war between a military power and a civilian population. And in a war of this sort, Israel must impose limitations on itself of both a practical and a moral nature.

The pilots are reminding the Israelis that even if the aim of the military action is to hit a murderer who is to die, when a state orders its pilots to drop a 1-ton bomb into a residential neighborhood in the most densely populated place in the world, and with the clear knowledge that hundreds of innocent civilians are likely to get hurt, its action, to a significant extent, employs the methods of a terror organization. And when a state orders its pilots to use powerful missiles to hit a car that is driving in the midst of passersby, even if it does not want to harm them intentionally, the nature of the deed, as well as its results, are like those of a terror organization.

A state is not entitled to act in the same manner as a terror organization. It is worth remembering this even today, when our blood is boiling after the brutal terror attack in Haifa. One of the reasons for this is the destructive influence that such a mode of action has on the society itself. Another reason is that a state is not entitled to carry out assassinations and murders and executions without trial, because then it loses the legitimacy of its claims against the terror organizations.

And when the commander of the Israel Air Force says that "anyone who sets out to murder children in Israel has to take into account that in his own surroundings there are children who could get killed," he must understand that such an argument could serve as a double-edged sword, even if Israel does not harm children on purpose.

An obdurate government, which for a long time now has been thwarting any chance of negotiations and is using only force, force and more force with the Palestinians, is condemning its soldiers to torture themselves with unbearable moral dilemmas. Is it entitled to turn its back on them and be insulted and shocked, when these people are beginning, after so many years, to understand the use that is being made of them? Hasn't the time come to face the contents of what they have to say, and look straight into the mirror they have positioned - courageously and with a full willingness to pay the price - in front of all of Israel society?

The IDF has always proudly proclaimed that in its air force, it is not the aircraft that is the main thing, but the pilot, the man inside the machine. Every Israeli soldier grew up on the (oxymornonic) principle of purity of arms and every Isreli grew up on the belief that the IDF is the most humane and moral army in the world. How can the IDF top brass today deny that there are people there, inside the planes and the helicopters? What is the reason for the hermetic insensitivity of the majority of the public, which is not even prepared to listen for a moment to the distress of the people from whom it demands - not only to pursue a war against the enemy, but also to take upon their consciences, for their entire lives, the unnecessary killing of innocent men, women and children?

Something in the public's stormy and almost hysterical reaction that gives the impression that the "lynch mob" after the pilots does not derive only from the fact of the refusal to carry out missions: It seems that the more difficult thing, the unbearably difficult thing, that the pilots have done is that, in total surprise, they have torn off most Israelis the protective layer in which they have wrapped themselves for years so as not to know or understand what is really being done in their name.

This, perhaps, is also what is behind the absurd accusation of treason that is being cast at the pilots: If they have betrayed at all, they have betrayed only the huge, consensual denial, the collective blindness. For one moment, the pilots succeeded in creating the frightening, electrifying connection between what Israel has been doing in the territories for 36 years now and the terror attacks, and for this, apparently, it is hard to forgive them. It is possible to choose not to read the reports by Amira Hass and Gideon Levy, but when Hebrew pilots, the flesh of the flesh of the Israeli consensus and the jewel in its crown, force us to look, if only for a fleeting moment, into the heart of the darkness - the first instinct is to get out of there in a panic, patch up the rent that has been torn in the sophisticated flak jacket that protects us from the knowledge and understanding, and immediately - as we were taught in the IDF - to attack and fight back, this time against the pilots.
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Old 10-08-2003, 12:47 AM   #41
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Lets remember, that the majority of Israey's support Sharon. Israel is a democracy not a dictatorship. Have some respect for the intelligent choices made by the people of Israel. Lets not forget what they have been through over the past 50 years and what many of their parents suffered through in the 1930s in Europe. Everyone in Israel is on the frontlines, and they have good reasons for supporting Sharon.

After 50 years of terrorism and violence from the Palestinians and Arabs, where is their non-violent movement for peace?
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Old 10-08-2003, 03:20 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
I remind you that Israel is a democracy and the majority of the population elected and support Sharon. The IDF does not target innocent civilians.
I agree that they do not willingly target innocent civilians. It's just that they don't care whether or not innocent civilians die because of their actions (IMO that is). It also seems that their actions are quite ineffective as too often the candidate they try to murder gets away (either safely or lightly injured) while the bystanders are hit.

Quote:
If that were the IDF goal, it could have killed all 3 million Palestinians 35 years ago. On the other hand, if Humas and Hezbolah had the capability to kill most or all the Jews in Israel, they would not hesitate to do so.
It can also be that they've learned from the behaviour of the frog and the boiling water. Kill them all at once and everybody protests, kill them all slowly (i.e. over a number of years instead of at once) and you only hear some lightly raised voices (internationally).

OTOH, you're probably right in saying that Hamas and Hezbollah are still trying to get all Jews out of Israel.

It's truly a situation.

Marty
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Old 10-08-2003, 03:51 AM   #43
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
I think you've crossed the line with this one.
Why ?

The Israel goverment has concentration camps, execute people without trail, building walls on soil that is not even thiers and now have thier own blitzkrieg,..

Tell me, what else can the Palastine people can do to resist a occupation army ?

The only thing i hate is the terror against civillions but i have no problems with attacks against soldiers.

And who had made that swamp anyway ?
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Old 10-08-2003, 07:18 AM   #44
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STING2:
I can't remember it it is too long ago but if i remember it correctly Mr. Arrafat is the only person ever being elected in the Palestinensian terretory.

I would welcome new free elections over there. But our political leaders prefer to call this man irrellevant and are surprised that the people over there aren't too much attracted to a installed leader from the west.

Klaus
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Old 10-08-2003, 09:12 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Lets remember, that the majority of Israey's support Sharon. Israel is a democracy not a dictatorship. Have some respect for the intelligent choices made by the people of Israel. Lets not forget what they have been through over the past 50 years and what many of their parents suffered through in the 1930s in Europe. Everyone in Israel is on the frontlines, and they have good reasons for supporting Sharon.

After 50 years of terrorism and violence from the Palestinians and Arabs, where is their non-violent movement for peace?
There are plenty of examples of intelligent populations democraticaly electing 'bad' people.

Sharon is good at firing back, but with him in charge there won't be peace, just fighting back and forth.
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