Israel attacks Syria

[Scarletwine]

I totally agree Klaus, both are elected officials. Both thrive on violence, as seen from each's terrorist past.

 

[STING2]

Klaus,


"Mr. Arafat is also a democratic elected leader of the Palestinensians - the only one who can say this about himself.
Does this automatically make a good gouy out of him?"

Can you name the people who ran against Arafat in the election and if so, did they really have a chance.

Palestine is not a "true" Democracy. Arafat's electoral wins are closer to Saddam's than to Sharon's.

In any event, I trust and respect the Israely voter and the Israely system of government.

If most Israely's believed Sharon to be a terrorist, he would not be in power. On the other hand, most Palestinians condone suicide bombing, so its not surprising that they would support a terrorist leader, regardless of the validity of the elections they have had.

 

[Scarletwine]

Other's think Sharon's tactics are terrorism.

http://www.jppi.org/assassinations.html

Jews for Peace in Palestine and Israel (JPPI)

Act Now to Stop Israel's Policy of Extrajudicial Killings
Israel has adopted a policy of extrajudicial killings (or assassinations) of Palestinian activists in an attempt to suppress the current Palestinian uprising against its brutal military occupation of the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem. As of August 6, 2001, between 40-60 Palestinians have been murdered as a result of these extrajudicial killings, at least 13 of whom were innocent bystanders. Extrajudicial killings are often implemented by a missile strike from a helicopter gunship, wreaking havoc in Palestinian residential areas and causing casualties to civilians. For instance, Israel's assassination of two Hamas activists in Nablus on July 31, 2001 also killed two journalists and two children aged 7 and 10.

Israel's policy of assassinating Palestinian activists is illegal according to both Israeli law and international law. Israel has outlawed the death penalty; however, its policy of extrajudicial killings allows it to circumvent this prohibition and execute people by other means. Worse yet, Israel is executing people without charging them with having committed a specific crime; without furnishing any evidence as to their "guilt"; and without the due process of a free and fair trial. Vaguely worded assurances from Israeli security agencies (which readily admit to torturing Palestinians to extract information) that those targeted for assassination are guilty of "acts of violence and terror" are hardly credible. This policy seriously undermines Israel's claim to being a democratic state based on the rule of law.

Furthermore, Israel's policy of assassinating Palestinian activists is in clear violation of customary international law that protects basic human rights such as the right to a free and fair trial. The policy also violates the Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, to which Israel is a High Contracting Party. Article 3(d) of this Geneva Convention prohibits at any time and in any place "the passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples." It is time to hold Israel accountable to its commitments and to international norms of civilized behavior.

In carrying out its extrajudicial killings, Israel also is violating U.S. law by employing U.S.-supplied weaponry, including Apache helicopter gunships, in a manner which is proscribed by the U.S. Foreign Assistance and Arms Export Control Acts. United States law stipulates, inter alia, that any defense articles and defense services to any country shall be furnished "solely for internal security, [or] for legitimate self-defense" (22U.S.C. 2302 and 2754). Israel's policy of extrajudicial killings, designed to eliminate Palestine's political leadership and to cow the Palestinian people into submission to Israel's military occupation, hardly qualifies as legitimate self-defense.

Because Israel's policy of extrajudicial killings is illegal, immoral, counter-productive to establishing peace and ultimately inimical to achieving "security", the U.S. Department of State has condemned this practice repeatedly and sharply. For instance, the State Department "strongly deplored" Israel's extrajudicial killings in Nablus on July 31, 2001 and described it as "excessive," "an escalation," and "highly provocative."

Israel's policy of extrajudicial killings is ultimately counter-productive to its own long-term interests in peace and security, and to the overall stability of the region. The Israeli government claims that its policy of extrajudicial killings is necessary to ensure its security against "terrorists"--Israel's term for any Palestinian who resists its military occupation. However, this policy is short-sighted: By killing Palestinian activists and innocent bystanders, Israel will only succeed in embittering Palestinians more (if this is possible) and increasing their will to resist the occupation. History has proven time and again that it is impossible to kill an idea. No matter how many Palestinian activists Israel murders, it will not succeed in quelling the desire of the Palestinian people to live in freedom, dignity and peace.

Therefore, as American Jews who support a just, comprehensive and lasting peace, Jews for Peace in Palestine and Israel (JPPI) urges all Americans to contact their Members of Congress and ask them to support a "Sense of Congress" resolution calling upon Israel to halt immediately its illegal policy of extrajudicial killings. Below is a model letter that you can copy and email, fax, or send by regular mail to your Members of Congress and "talking points" that you can use when calling your Congressional offices.

That number is much increased.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
865 Israelis and 2,491 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000.

5,887 Israelis and 23,671 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000.

1 Israeli home has been destroyed by Palestinians and 2,202 Palestinian homes have been completely destroyed (14,436 partially destroyed) since September 29, 2000

They both IMO the wrong track to ending the violence and safety.

 

[STING2]

Scarletwine,

I remind you that Israel is a democracy and the majority of the population elected and support Sharon. The IDF does not target innocent civilians. If that were the IDF goal, it could have killed all 3 million Palestinians 35 years ago. On the other hand, if Humas and Hezbolah had the capability to kill most or all the Jews in Israel, they would not hesitate to do so.

 

[Dreadsox]

OK...here goes nothing....

The article that is posted above comes from the JPPI. This is the Jews for Peace in Palestine.

[Q]Jews for Peace in Palestine and Israel was recently in the news when Israeli immigration authorities refused entry to a nine-person U.S. congressional-staff delegation co-sponsored by JPPI and American Muslims for Jerusalem (AMJ). The AMJ is a project sponsored by the American Muslim Alliance (AMA), the American Muslim Council (AMC) and the Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR), among others. CAIR grew out of the Hamas in 1994 and two of the three founding directors of CAIR occupied senior positions in the Islamic Association for Palestine, a front group for Hamas. In 1998, at a rally in Brooklyn cosponsored by CAIR, one speaker referred to Jews as "descendants of the apes." Similarly, the AMA held a convention at which Holocaust revisionist literature was circulated. The AMC, meanwhile, spends its time and money routinely declaring that Hamas "is not a terrorist group" and has hosted a speaker who praised suicide bombers, urging support for such "martyrdom operations." The AMC's deputy director, Issa Smith, told the Los Angeles Times on January 24, 1991, "Often we say that we are not against Jews, but against Zionists, those who had the goal of creating a state run by Jews." [/Q]

So lets see, it is ok to associate one's self with racists who do not believe the holocaust was that bad. It is ok to ally oneself with organizations that praise suicide bombers. It is ok to ally oneself with former hamas leadership?

I am sure there are better organizations to use to make points than the JPPI...or at least ones that are not hanging with organizations that promote racism.

 

[verte76]

Horrors! I can do without this anti-Semitic . That's ugly.

 

[verte76]

Dread, can you recommend a good source for Israeli news? Thanks. The only source I currently have is the Israeli embassy in Washington.

 

[anitram]

I'm not Dread, but I like the Ha'aretz newspaper. It is a leftist Israeli paper.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/

 

[Scarletwine]

OK...here goes nothing....

I am sure there are better organizations to use to make points than the JPPI...or at least ones that are not hanging with organizations that promote racism.

My bad, I should have done more research on the org.

However I do have other sights within the Israeli Peace contingent (see Pilgers latest doc.) within Israel that condemn what Sharon is doing, including some families of victims of suicide bombers.

I'm truly tired of not choosing sides, Israel is the stronger nation , buoyed by our 10 B a year and the aggressor in taking more land, they should acquise more. Why not give a separate state? the violence would most likely end and those that defy it would be condemned by both sides.

Because Sharon is greedy and wants more land like a primitive leader and thinks the Palestinians are slaves. He defies us and all wwe wish for the Mideast?

 

[deep]

I think we all here agree that terrorism can't be accepted. All of is think of Mr. Arafat if we here Israel + Terrorism.

But i think what Mr. Sharon does is terrorism too - as revenge he uses the army and kills people where he thinks they are connected with terrorism.
This is far away from what i think could be called justice or defense.

Klaus

Mr. Sharon does is terrorism too





The Bush Administration and many Americans refuse to even look at this.

Isralies on the front lines have the courage to tell the truth.

Listen to the pilots
By David Grossman

Now that the furor over the pilots' declaration has abated a bit, perhaps the time has come to listen attentively to the essence of what they wanted to say in their protest. Even if, in the end, "the voice of the masses" silences the pilots and even if some of them retract their protest, there is still validity and importance to what they have said. Basic fairness also says that a government and a people that send their sons to carry out the difficult and sometimes dirty work of this particular war on their behalf must listen, for once, in an unbiased way to what the people who are doing these things in their name are saying.

The bottom line of the pilots' message is that if the Palestinians are currently capable of carrying out painful attacks on Israel and Israeli citizens, the war that is raging is still, ultimately, a war between a military power and a civilian population. And in a war of this sort, Israel must impose limitations on itself of both a practical and a moral nature.

The pilots are reminding the Israelis that even if the aim of the military action is to hit a murderer who is to die, when a state orders its pilots to drop a 1-ton bomb into a residential neighborhood in the most densely populated place in the world, and with the clear knowledge that hundreds of innocent civilians are likely to get hurt, its action, to a significant extent, employs the methods of a terror organization. And when a state orders its pilots to use powerful missiles to hit a car that is driving in the midst of passersby, even if it does not want to harm them intentionally, the nature of the deed, as well as its results, are like those of a terror organization.

A state is not entitled to act in the same manner as a terror organization. It is worth remembering this even today, when our blood is boiling after the brutal terror attack in Haifa. One of the reasons for this is the destructive influence that such a mode of action has on the society itself. Another reason is that a state is not entitled to carry out assassinations and murders and executions without trial, because then it loses the legitimacy of its claims against the terror organizations.

And when the commander of the Israel Air Force says that "anyone who sets out to murder children in Israel has to take into account that in his own surroundings there are children who could get killed," he must understand that such an argument could serve as a double-edged sword, even if Israel does not harm children on purpose.

An obdurate government, which for a long time now has been thwarting any chance of negotiations and is using only force, force and more force with the Palestinians, is condemning its soldiers to torture themselves with unbearable moral dilemmas. Is it entitled to turn its back on them and be insulted and shocked, when these people are beginning, after so many years, to understand the use that is being made of them? Hasn't the time come to face the contents of what they have to say, and look straight into the mirror they have positioned - courageously and with a full willingness to pay the price - in front of all of Israel society?

The IDF has always proudly proclaimed that in its air force, it is not the aircraft that is the main thing, but the pilot, the man inside the machine. Every Israeli soldier grew up on the (oxymornonic) principle of purity of arms and every Isreli grew up on the belief that the IDF is the most humane and moral army in the world. How can the IDF top brass today deny that there are people there, inside the planes and the helicopters? What is the reason for the hermetic insensitivity of the majority of the public, which is not even prepared to listen for a moment to the distress of the people from whom it demands - not only to pursue a war against the enemy, but also to take upon their consciences, for their entire lives, the unnecessary killing of innocent men, women and children?

Something in the public's stormy and almost hysterical reaction that gives the impression that the "lynch mob" after the pilots does not derive only from the fact of the refusal to carry out missions: It seems that the more difficult thing, the unbearably difficult thing, that the pilots have done is that, in total surprise, they have torn off most Israelis the protective layer in which they have wrapped themselves for years so as not to know or understand what is really being done in their name.

This, perhaps, is also what is behind the absurd accusation of treason that is being cast at the pilots: If they have betrayed at all, they have betrayed only the huge, consensual denial, the collective blindness. For one moment, the pilots succeeded in creating the frightening, electrifying connection between what Israel has been doing in the territories for 36 years now and the terror attacks, and for this, apparently, it is hard to forgive them. It is possible to choose not to read the reports by Amira Hass and Gideon Levy, but when Hebrew pilots, the flesh of the flesh of the Israeli consensus and the jewel in its crown, force us to look, if only for a fleeting moment, into the heart of the darkness - the first instinct is to get out of there in a panic, patch up the rent that has been torn in the sophisticated flak jacket that protects us from the knowledge and understanding, and immediately - as we were taught in the IDF - to attack and fight back, this time against the pilots.

 

[STING2]

Lets remember, that the majority of Israey's support Sharon. Israel is a democracy not a dictatorship. Have some respect for the intelligent choices made by the people of Israel. Lets not forget what they have been through over the past 50 years and what many of their parents suffered through in the 1930s in Europe. Everyone in Israel is on the frontlines, and they have good reasons for supporting Sharon.

After 50 years of terrorism and violence from the Palestinians and Arabs, where is their non-violent movement for peace?

 

[Popmartijn]

I remind you that Israel is a democracy and the majority of the population elected and support Sharon. The IDF does not target innocent civilians.

I agree that they do not willingly target innocent civilians. It's just that they don't care whether or not innocent civilians die because of their actions (IMO that is). It also seems that their actions are quite ineffective as too often the candidate they try to murder gets away (either safely or lightly injured) while the bystanders are hit.

If that were the IDF goal, it could have killed all 3 million Palestinians 35 years ago. On the other hand, if Humas and Hezbolah had the capability to kill most or all the Jews in Israel, they would not hesitate to do so.

It can also be that they've learned from the behaviour of the frog and the boiling water. Kill them all at once and everybody protests, kill them all slowly (i.e. over a number of years instead of at once) and you only hear some lightly raised voices (internationally).

OTOH, you're probably right in saying that Hamas and Hezbollah are still trying to get all Jews out of Israel.

It's truly a situation.

Marty

 

[Rono]

I think you've crossed the line with this one.

Why ?

The Israel goverment has concentration camps, execute people without trail, building walls on soil that is not even thiers and now have thier own blitzkrieg,..

Tell me, what else can the Palastine people can do to resist a occupation army ?

The only thing i hate is the terror against civillions but i have no problems with attacks against soldiers.

And who had made that swamp anyway ?

 

[Klaus]

STING2:
I can't remember it it is too long ago but if i remember it correctly Mr. Arrafat is the only person ever being elected in the Palestinensian terretory.

I would welcome new free elections over there. But our political leaders prefer to call this man irrellevant and are surprised that the people over there aren't too much attracted to a installed leader from the west.

Klaus

 

[TylerDurden]

Lets remember, that the majority of Israey's support Sharon. Israel is a democracy not a dictatorship. Have some respect for the intelligent choices made by the people of Israel. Lets not forget what they have been through over the past 50 years and what many of their parents suffered through in the 1930s in Europe. Everyone in Israel is on the frontlines, and they have good reasons for supporting Sharon.

After 50 years of terrorism and violence from the Palestinians and Arabs, where is their non-violent movement for peace?

There are plenty of examples of intelligent populations democraticaly electing 'bad' people.

Sharon is good at firing back, but with him in charge there won't be peace, just fighting back and forth.

 

[verte76]

I agree, just because Sharon was elected doesn't make him good. Don't misunderstand me; I support the state of Israel. I subscribe to a Jewish news service and read press releases at the Israeli Embassy web site to try to keep an open mind. I'm irked at Sharon not only because of the attacks on Syria and Lebanon, I think he's risking Israel's security as well by running the risk of starting a whole ugly conflagration in the area. I keep having nightmarish thoughts of all sorts of ugly attacks in Tel Aviv in particular since that's where my friend lives.

 

[nbcrusader]

And who had made that swamp anyway ?

Anti-semitism

 

[Scarletwine]

So Long, Middle East Road Map

By Ian Williams, AlterNet
October 7, 2003

The Middle East road map finally met its untimely but expected demise over the weekend when Israeli bombs landed near Damascus, aimed at an alleged terrorist training camp.


The question this week in diplomatic circles is not how to salvage the peace process but how to avert global mayhem. It's not a question, however, that worries the Bush administration, which appears content to let the Middle East hurtle down the path to possible armageddon.


Supporting the Israeli action, the president said, "Israel's got a right to defend herself, that Israel must not feel constrained in terms of defense of the homeland." This weekend's Israeli attack on Syria shows how far Israeli leader Ariel Sharon will go ? and just how willing Bush is to cover for his excesses. When the issue came before the UN Security Council on Sunday, Kofi Annan and most of the other delegates correctly described the attack as a violation of international law and the UN Charter.


In contrast, the Americans decided that any resolution had to be "balanced" with a condemnation of terrorism in general, and the Haifa bombing in particular. (There is no doubt that the Haifa suicide attack was horrific, but the Syrians had no provable or likely connection whatsoever with the bombers.) The Israeli ambassador to the UN, Dan Gillerman, showed equal chutzpah in decrying Syria's request for an emergency Security Council meeting. He said, "For Syria to ask a debate in this council is comparable only to the Taliban calling for such a debate after 9-11, it would be laughable if it was not so sad."


The attacks on Syria mark the end of any hope that the U.S. will take a firmer line with Sharon. "One-sided," "biased," or "unbalanced" are the knee-jerk reactions to any UN resolution (or indeed any TV program, or any printed article) that suggests that Israeli government behavior is less than perfect. Relentless reiteration by Israel's supporters, the Bush administration, and Tony Blair's government have shifted the terms of the debate to the point that one suspects that any action of Israel, however outrageous, could not be condemned without the insertion of such "balancing" references, or more likely vetoed outright using the handy justification of self-defense against terrorism.


Last week, Kofi Annan condemned Israeli plans to build 600 new homes for settlers in the Occupied Territories as "serious obstacles to the achievement of a two-State solution," and said that the settlements are "a clear breach of the Fourth Geneva Convention and also contradict Israel's commitments under the Quartet's Road Map." The U.S. shamefacedly suggests that the settlements and the wall, not to mention the assassination and exile threat are simply "unhelpful," and so far has shown no signs of suspending the aid that pays for these unhelpful breaches of international law.


The exception was the administration's announcement that it may deduct some of the construction cost for the Israeli security wall separating Israel from the West Bank from the $9 billion in U.S. loan guarantees to Israel as authorized by Congress. UN Human Rights Rapporteur John Dugard, a South African anti-apartheid activist and lawyer, recently issued a report that found that those "living between the Wall and the Green Line will be effectively cut off from their farmlands and workplaces, schools, health clinics and other social services. This is likely to lead to a new generation of refugees or internally displaced persons." Unsurprisingly, the Israelis immediately denounced Dugard's report as "biased and one-sided" even though it had refused to even meet with him during his visit to the region.


Thus far, U.S. has shamefacedly suggested that the settlements and the wall, not to mention the assassination and exile threat are simply "unhelpful," and has shown no signs of suspending the aid that pays for these breaches of international law. And in a typical show of "balanced" policymaking, during the same week, it vetoed a resolution condemning Israel's statements threatening to exile and if necessary assassinate Yasser Arafat (who for all his faults is the only freely elected leader of the Arab world). U.S. Ambassador John Negroponte predictably insisted that the resolution lacked "balance."


The degree of support for U.S. policy in the Middle East can be measured by the vote in the UN General Assembly to condemn Israel for its threats on Arafat. It makes the so-called "coalition of the willing" look impressive. The United States and Israel were joined by Micronesia and Marshall Islands, two tiny states totally dependent on Washington for their budget, the only states to vote against the resolution.


Bush's position on the attack on Syria has disturbing implications for the world, coming on the heels of Kofi Annan's speech to the General Assembly warning of the dangers of unilateralism. In many ways, it's the administration's own actions that have led the way down this dangerous road of "hot preemption." If the U.S. can attack Iraq on suspicion of possessing weapons of mass destruction and harboring terrorism, then how can it call Ariel Sharon to order when he wants to whack an old enemy in a fit of pique? And down the line, what does Washington tell New Delhi if India decides to strike Pakistan or China takes action against Taiwan?


The Bush White House, however, is far more intent on pursuing its own plan for global payback, irrespective of its consequences. Its position on the Israeli attacks was hardly coincidental. There is every sign that the Bush administration is relapsing to its bad old ways. An anonymous administration official told the Knight-Ridder News Services that hawks within the administration are still hoping for "regime change" in Syria, and recently asked the CIA to come up with a list of replacements for Syrian President Bashar Assad. The Congress in tandem is considering the Syria Accountability Act, which authorizes the Bush administration to impose new economic and diplomatic sanctions on that nation.


The reality is that there is more resistance inside the Israel Defense Forces to Sharon's policies than there is in Washington. Twenty four officers of the Israeli air force in recent weeks refused to participate in raids on the Israeli-occupied West Bank and Gaza, especially the assassination raids against the leaders of Hamas and Islamic Jihad. The officers felt too many innocent civilians were being killed in the attacks. It's a pity that neither Bush nor Sharon has any such qualms.

 

[verte76]

The reality is that there is more resistance inside the Israel Defense Forces to Sharon's policies than there is in Washington. Twenty four officers of the Israeli air force in recent weeks refused to participate in raids on the Israeli-occupied West Bank and Gaza, especially the assassination raids against the leaders of Hamas and Islamic Jihad. The officers felt too many innocent civilians were being killed in the attacks. It's a pity that neither Bush nor Sharon has any such qualms.

Damn.

 

[STING2]

It may be true that a democracy can elect a "bad" leader, but notice that the people of Israel CONTINUE to support Sharon and his policies. I think its about time people who trash Israely foreign policy notice that the intelligent people of Israel support the policy!

Another thing. The IDF does not target civilians it does care very much about avoiding accidents. They know it is not to their political advantage to inflict accidentaly civilian losses on anyone. I do believe they really do care for innocent human life unlike their neighbors who support the slaughter of Israely teens in Disco's through suicide bombings.

 

[STING2]

Popmartjin,

"I agree that they do not willingly target innocent civilians."


"It can also be that they've learned from the behaviour of the frog and the boiling water. Kill them all at once and everybody protests, kill them all slowly (i.e. over a number of years instead of at once) and you only hear some lightly raised voices (internationally)."


I feel these two statements contradict each other as far as what you believe the Israely government and military to be doing. Which statement is more accurate when it comes to what you think about the IDF and Israely government?

 

[verte76]

Just out of curiosity, Sting, I'd like to see some Israeli polls. They don't post them at the Embassy's web site.

 

[TylerDurden]

It may be true that a democracy can elect a "bad" leader, but notice that the people of Israel CONTINUE to support Sharon and his policies. I think its about time people who trash Israely foreign policy notice that the intelligent people of Israel support the policy!

Yeah, I know, but it's not a policy that will bring an end to it. Build walls, shoot back etc, I can see how it can 'work' in the short term, and certainly see how it looks good in a political way for Sharon, people love tough politicians, but it's not going to stop it. It'll stay the same or get worse, but it won't make it better in the long run.

 

[STING2]

Tylerdurden,

"Yeah, I know, but it's not a policy that will bring an end to it. Build walls, shoot back etc, I can see how it can 'work' in the short term, and certainly see how it looks good in a political way for Sharon, people love tough politicians, but it's not going to stop it. It'll stay the same or get worse, but it won't make it better in the long run."

National Security in Israel has dramatically improved over what it was when the country was first formed in 1948. When was the last time an Arab country tried to invade Israel? Defending yourself as Israel has done for fifty years has been very positive and very beneficial for its citizens. Terrorism is like crime, you may not be able to end it, but you can manage it. Israel currently has the 22nd highest Standard of Living in the world. POPMART did good business when it was in Tel Aviv. On the other hand the Syrians and Palestinians continue to live in shit holes, refuse every peace deal that is offered, and use the money that could be improving their own peoples standard of living to kill Israely Teenagers. Syria's standard of living is #110 in the world while the Occupied Palestinians Territories have a standard of living ranked #98.

verte76,

The Israely government is similar to other parlimentary democracy's where a vote of No Confidence is required to replace a leader. I don't have the current opinion polls, but the people don't have to wait four years if they wanted a leader other than Sharon.

 

[Popmartijn]

It may be true that a democracy can elect a "bad" leader, but notice that the people of Israel CONTINUE to support Sharon and his policies. I think its about time people who trash Israely foreign policy notice that the intelligent people of Israel support the policy!

I can think of some examples in history where people elected a 'bad' leader (in some cases even a murderous tyrant) and continue to support him after some years. For the sake of not directly linking the Israeli government to those governments I won't name them here.

Another thing. The IDF does not target civilians it does care very much about avoiding accidents. They know it is not to their political advantage to inflict accidentaly civilian losses on anyone.

Then what polical loss did they have lately?

(about the whole situation in the Middle East)

Marty

 

[verte76]

verte76,

The Israely government is similar to other parlimentary democracy's where a vote of No Confidence is required to replace a leader. I don't have the current opinion polls, but the people don't have to wait four years if they wanted a leader other than Sharon.

Egads, *only* with a no-confidence vote? No-confidence votes can be awfully tough to carry out. I know, the previous government was dumped with one. I'm going to investigate how many seats Likud has in the Knesset. I can't remember this to save my life right now (damn these pain pills). Likud used to *never* win elections until the Sephardic population in Israel got the numbers, and now the demographics favor Likud. I agree with Popmartjin, it's possible to elect bad governments democratically. Democracy isn't perfect. If I were Israeli I'd vote Labour. I understand that I'm not..........

 

[Amna]

"Mr. Sharon is not a dictator, but the democratically elected leader of Israel. Its about time Europeans gave more respect to Israely citizens and the choices they have made with their government and foreign policy. Israel is not going to sit back and let their people be slaughtered. They know better than anyone, the lessons of not responding to evil and aggression early, back in the 1930s."

hahahaha, this is a very funny quote.... Israel and Sharon are two different things... Sharon is a terrorist who wears an American flag pin; He had slaughter 3,000 innocent women and children in Lebanon, and he deared visited the 9-11 site to grieve... Yet, did he ever apologize for what he had done in Lebanon....
Then he goes on to give the IDF free will to treat the Palestinians in any way they please... Can you imagine the many war crimes commited.. No, because no one knows what the hell is going on over there... no media coverage.
As for Israel, many Israeli's are against the occupation of Gaza and West bank...Many Israelis have gone as humen sheilds in the West Bank... A father who mourns the death of his daughter from a suicide bomber says that his daughter and the suicide bomber were victims of Sharon...
I find it hard to understand how some of you people are so quick to judge the people of Palestine and surrounding countries, when you lot have never been there...
I am not insulting Israel or Jewish people, and I don't plan 2... because it is not in my belief.and i'm not educated enough to make such bold comments.. But, how can some of you be so easy to call certain things 'ANTI-SEMETIC' , when you feel it easy to insult the Muslim community... When it easy to bash a state, and never once think of the post-physicological-bashing it has recieved... Instead of trying to find the answer to a problem...

Some of you believe that Sharon's choice in bombing house x,y, and z. ... and killing child x , y, or z, is ok... as long as the child is a suspected terrorist, it's ok????
Let me tell you, most of the victims are children.... Children are the future, and if Sharon is willing to destroy their minds, and supress them, well then, I can understand why they would blow themselves up... I don't support it, but when you grab hope of life from a child, what do they have to live for....?....?....?

This is not about Muslims Jews or Christians, this conflict has to do with a grumpy old man and his administration (Sharon and Arafat) who have lacked the idea of thinking about the children...

But when you have a Wealthy man like Sharon who has the power to destroy hospitals, homes, cut-off water from the people, cut any red-cross help or anything else... what is left.
This people see Israeli Defense Army taking their hope away, so of course they are going to support agression against him.. thats why people support Arafat, cuz he has that... They see Mehmood Abbas as a puppet given from Israel and the West... and they don't want that...

So these kids who blow themselves up are a product of what Sharon has made.... This is his tool, and he is enjoying it... and Israel is not a true democracy.. it may be labled as a democracy, just as the US is... The people didn't necessarily re-elect sharon...

========
See, a lot of times theres more to a conflict, like studying the phsycology of the state and its reasons for its actions...

If it was only easy to say that Muslims by nature are agressive.... hahaha, this is what many people think and believe, only because they are to lazy to understand the real core of the problem..

 

[Klaus]

nbcrusader:

Talking about AntiSemitism dosn't make 100% sense here, since the Palestinensians are semites too

 

[Amna]

O, and if Sharon or Israel knew better then anyone (Int'l community, UN), they wouldn't be suffering from the current problem, which has def. escalated.
-this is responding to the above quote.

 

[Amna]

Exactly, Klaus. Point well taken.