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Old 06-24-2006, 11:55 AM   #46
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Originally posted by Angela Harlem
Dude, dont speak of intolerance as a reason for wiping out another religion. It is the very essence of intolerance.
Fair enough, you have backed up you earlier comment.

However, regarding this line of thought - was it intolerant to stop the spread of Nazism and Hitler? (if you don't think Nazism, at its core, was a religion - you need to look into what went on in the Third Reich)

I think Conservatives and Liberals in the West agree on one thing - Freedom. Of course, we may go back and forth on to the degree which that should and should not exist, but that is essentially the starting point.

If opposing a way of thinking that essentially wants my death is intolerance, then I guess I am guilty of intolerance. But let me ask you, if a group of people we will call "Group Y" landed on your shore and said you need to convert to "Religion X" or die - would you think it is intolerance to stop that? Or in the name of "tolerance" you would join the religion - therefore affirming Religion X's intolerance?

My basic point in all of this is still not addressed. If the quotes I posted from the Quran are true and not taken out of context - would you have a problem with that line of thinking?
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Old 06-24-2006, 11:56 AM   #47
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http://www.dummies.com/WileyCDA/Dumm...764555030.html

I'm ordering mine.

AEON said: I do not think many people would argue against the fact that LOVE is the theme of the New Testament. Love God. Love your neighbor. Love your enemies. Right? The usual battle is actually living up to that Highest Law - and that's where Christians can fail, by not being loving enough.

Can you say the same thing about the Quran? About Mohammed himself? Compare his life with the life of Jesus Christ and tell me which one should a "Liberal" want to emulate?

---------

Some have compared the lives. Here's a book:

http://www.astrolabe.com/product/391...l_Sayings.html

"Jesus and Muhammad (S): The Parallel Sayings. This book compares the parables of Jesus with the teachings of Prophet Muhammad (S), from the Quran and Hadith (sayings) to show that Christianity's core values — love, compassion, peace, forgiveness, and repentance — mirror the central tenets of Islam. Jesus and Mohammed closes the gap of understanding between Christians and Muslims and demonstrates that despite centuries of differences, the two religions possess a common moral and spiritual foundation. Example: When you give a luncheon or dinner, do not invite your friends, your brothers or relatives, or your rich neighbors; if you do, they may invite you back and so you will be repaid. But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous. Luke 14: 12-14 Let him who believes in God and the Last Day be generous to his neighbor, and let him who believes in God and the Last Day be generous to his guest." Forth Hadith of An-Nawawi 15
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Old 06-24-2006, 12:06 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON
I do not think many people would argue against the fact that LOVE is the theme of the New Testament. Love God. Love your neighbor. Love your enemies. Right? The usual battle is actually living up to that Highest Law - and that's where Christians can fail, by not being loving enough.
But as you can see, some people here define "love" as "strict adherence to God's commands." Likewise, I'm sure Islam defines "love" as "strict adherence to Allah's commands"--a.k.a. Sharia law. I'd also bet that liberal to moderate Muslims would be berated similarly to how you responded to my threads here on Christianity.

Frankly, I don't know many people who would consider themselves to be a self-identified extremist.

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Old 06-24-2006, 12:06 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


No, there are plenty who are well versed in the bible in this forum. They may not share your belief system about what the book means today. That does not make them any less versed than you.

There have been plenty of threads in here about Islam. Many started by myself. I have been accused of intolorance because of them.

Maybe you should worry about making such sweaping generalizations about members of this community after 100 posts or so.

Most of us in here have been able to debate respectfully without backhanded comments.
You are right, I over generalized on this post. It is the emotional, name calling posts that I was referring to. There are many others who do try to engage in a genuine discussion. And I do, sincerely, apologize to you and the others. I became a monster to beat a monster - so to speak
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Old 06-24-2006, 12:33 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by Judah
[url]---------

Some have compared the lives. Here's a book:


Thanks for the link. I have read quite a bit on this subject, and I look forward to reading more. However, at first glance, it does seem a little bent in the "Defending Islam Against Christian Attacks" category. But I could be wrong.

Here is a real brief comparison of the lives of Jesus and Mohammed according to each religious text. (I am not debating whether or not these religious texts are true, I am just comparing what the two texts claim about their central religious messenger). These are very generalized and can be found very easily on the web – but it does draw a quick, clear line that these two men, and their ministries, were in no way similar. Again, this is according to the Bible and Quran.

Jesus - Born of the Virgin Mary in 4 BC.
Mohammed - Born of Aminah 570 AD.

Jesus - No Earthly Father
Mohammed - Earthly Father was Abd Allah

Jesus - Never Married
Mohammed - Married to 15 wives

Jesus - Lived a sinless Life
Mohammed - Was a Sinner

Jesus - Never Prayed for Forgiveness of His sins
Mohammed - Prayed often for Forgiveness

Jesus - Waged no War in his lifetime
Mohammed - Waged 66 battles in his lifetime

Jesus - Never ordered anyone executed
Mohammed - Ordered the death of many

Jesus - Established Mercy Love and Grace
Mohammed - No Mercy only the Sword

Jesus - Established a Spiritual Kingdom
Mohammed - Established an Earthly Empire

Jesus - Old Testament predicted 1st and 2nd coming
Mohammed - No Scriptural predictions at all

Jesus - Life was dedicated to Love
Mohammed - Life was consumed by war

Jesus - Mentioned in Quran 97 times
Mohammed - Mentioned in Quran 25 times
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Old 06-24-2006, 01:21 PM   #51
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
Thank goodness the liberal christians are here in America to do this!
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Old 06-24-2006, 01:23 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox



Maybe you should worry about making such sweaping generalizations about members of this community after 100 posts or so.
I have actually been lurking around here since 1999. Whie I have no proof - I can only ask that you trust me on this one.
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Old 06-24-2006, 01:41 PM   #53
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Originally posted by Dreadsox


Verte...it has been a while since I have seen you use your favorite symbol.

A thread that has morphed into an Islam-bashing thread is the perfect place for my favorite symbol.
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Old 06-24-2006, 01:47 PM   #54
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For all those in a fluster over AEON's statements, if you go back and look at the body of FYM posts, they would support some of the generalizations stated above.

It is not unusual for a thread on Islam to get a quick, unrelated interjection on Christianity "for balance".

Or perhaps it is best to just take a break from this place so that the displays of tolerance (as we find in the Pat Robertson and Ann Coulter threads and peppered elsewhere) can continue by those trying to "save" hijacked beliefs.
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Old 06-24-2006, 02:05 PM   #55
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I realize there is a man my age somewhere in the Middle East, worrying about his own future, his wife, his family, the meaning of it all - many of the same things I worry about, but probably to a much bigger degree.

My heart truly goes out to such man because in the majority of the countries in the Middle East - he does not have the freedom to explore all of the different answers without the fear of death.

My heart goes out to the women who cannot attend school or speak out in public.

I am not sure of the root cause. Is it the religion? The culture? The economy? A combination of all these things? All I know is that I think that freedom is a fundamental right I think is worth fighting for.

Do I want to “fight” Islam? Yes – on a spiritual, intellectual level. I do not want to kill someone for believing one thing over another, I would hope to “convince” a Muslim of his errors in the same way a secular humanist wants to convince me of my errors.

The essential point here is freedom.
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Old 06-24-2006, 02:05 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


If you are going to pan back far enough to this level of generality, you really need to include any belief system (religious or secular). A dynamic leader with an appealing message can bring the worst out of people.


the difference, as i know we've been through before, is that God will always, always trump the nation, the nationality, the ethnicity, the economic philosophy, as being a motivator for suicidal violence. can another ethos be deadly? absolutely. but who do you answer to first? God, or the State?

it's the access to the infinite that makes religion and religious passion the most powerful force on earth.

i do think religion is unique.
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Old 06-24-2006, 02:35 PM   #57
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Originally posted by Irvine511
the difference, as i know we've been through before, is that God will always, always trump the nation, the nationality, the ethnicity, the economic philosophy, as being a motivator for suicidal violence. can another ethos be deadly? absolutely. but who do you answer to first? God, or the State?

it's the access to the infinite that makes religion and religious passion the most powerful force on earth.

i do think religion is unique.
God will be trump for those who seek God. The state, ideal, cause or other belief will be trump for those who put that first in their lives.

I understand your feeling that religion is unique. I'd ask, is religion unique as a motivator, or is it only unique for the negative motivations?
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Old 06-24-2006, 02:47 PM   #58
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Aeon, it's your generalizations that are, quite frankly, really getting under my skin. I was just in a Muslim country of 72 million people, Turkey. Turkey is a completely secular state. Most of its population chooses to practice Islam, but any and all religions are legal. Women have equal rights with men. Hell, they've even had a female head of state, something we Americans can't say. It's useless comparing Jesus and Mohammed. They lived in different eras, in different places, in different cultures. Mohammed was a political leader married to a wealthy merchant. He's not considered God, thus it's misleading to call the religion Mohammedanism. He was trying to unite the Arabic world, and was definitely making progress on this front when he died. They were having a war a minute, and unity stopped this. The guy had enemies, and had to defend himself. These enemies wanted to kill him. What would you do if someone wanted to kill you?
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Old 06-24-2006, 02:58 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by verte76
It's useless comparing Jesus and Mohammed.

My comparison was in response to Judah's posting. You are right though, there is not much comparison.

Just to clarify something. Jesus was under attack during most of His ministry, and He was eventually killed in a very horrific manner. So were the most of the Apostles and the New Testament's most prolific writer - Paul.

If Muslims are not being asked to imitate the life of Mohammed, (as Christians are asked to imitate Jesus) then are they being asked to imitate anyone else?
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Old 06-24-2006, 03:15 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON

Judging by many of the posts in FYM - there aren't too man well-versed-in-the-Bible types either, but that certainly doesn't keep them from crtiticizing the Bible.
Let's not forget who got the great commandment wrong...


Quote:
Originally posted by AEON

It seems that the "extremist" Muslims are the ones who are actually doing what Mohammed would do (and did). It is not a stretch for any terrorist to justify what they do in the Quran. On the other hand, it would be an impossible task for a Christian to justify such activity in the New Testament.
I thought we're suppose to follow both books.

Quote:
Originally posted by AEON

Can you say the same thing about the Quran? About Mohammed himself? Compare his life with the life of Jesus Christ and tell me which one should a "Liberal" want to emulate?

In my opinion, it seems the political left should be doing everything in its power to stop the spread of this religion and way of thinking. It is the very essence of intolerance.
Wow, this is just crap...
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