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Old 06-23-2006, 11:27 PM   #31
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Originally posted by AEON

I am still waiting for someone to defend the passages I pasted. Belive me - I would like to be wrong about them. They sort of remind me of the Chronicles of Riddick...
Well the amount of people knowledgeable enough to put it in context that frequent this forum is small so it may be awhile.


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It is obvious you are selective about the religions you choose to criticize. That's cool But please understand - the tolerance you receive from Christians is an ocean compared to the drips of tolerance Islam offers.
What does this mean? Have I defended this religion somehow? I admit I'm not that knowledgeable to defend or criticize. And this is my point.

I see a lot of people criticizing the religion and know absolutley nothing about it except for the extremist they see on TV. It would be as if someone's only exposure to Christianinty is Jerry Falwell or the folks from Westboro Baptist Church and they criticized the religion based on them and these verses that I showed.
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Old 06-23-2006, 11:28 PM   #32
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Originally posted by AEON
I do not think I need to do some fancy cutting and pasting to make Islam look violent.

This thread is not about the Bible - but I challenge you to come up with similar passages from the New Testament. Almost everyoe agrees that Jesus was about peace - and even the Quran calls him a great teacher. The same cannot be said about Muhammed - in either is actions in life nor his teachings.

I am still waiting for someone to defend the passages I pasted. Belive me - I would like to be wrong about them. They sort of remind me of the Chronicles of Riddick...

It is obvious you are selective about the religions you choose to criticize. That's cool But please understand - the tolerance you receive from Christians is an ocean compared to the drips of tolerance Islam offers.
AEON, i'm no Moslem apologist (see my other posts in the Sunni-Shia topic), but i've seen those quotes above many times from anti-Islamic sites and followed debates on the (pro-Christian) Answering Islam website and the (pro-Islam) Answering Christianity website.

For some of the questions you posed, people may want to see how Moslems answer these...here:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac17.htm#links

Question 56 attempts to answer the "kill all non-believers" stuff...there are other topics, including the treatment of women. Not sure this is the best site for these answers...there are probably some better, more objective (or, at least, more academic) sites, but i haven't done a detailed enough search.

I think the reason you're not getting many defenders to your Quranic questions is probably, you know, demographics. There just aren't too many well-versed-in-the-Quran-and-Hadith types in here (including myself...i've read the Quran in Arabic, Urdu and English...and fuck if i know what the hell it's talking about most of the time; but, you know, i say the same thing about the Bible, which i've also read...when it comes to sprituality, i try to feel my way through my internal thoughts/feelings/emotions, instead of relying upon or trying to decipher thousands of years old of (probably corrupted) religious stories/propaganda, no matter how "universal" and "eternal" the words are purported to be).

[Ah, shit...did i just offend ALL religions? Watch Answering Christianity AND Answering Islam get on my ass now. Let it be known that me not getting religion is a deficiency in me, and (probably) not the religions. No, wait, i can't say this...now my spinelessness has offended all my Athiest brothers and sisters. Some days, ya can't win.]
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Old 06-24-2006, 02:23 AM   #33
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If you are going to pan back far enough to this level of generality, you really need to include any belief system (religious or secular). A dynamic leader with an appealing message can bring the worst out of people.
I agree...but I also think you have to pan back to that level to offer meaningful analyses (and perhaps more importantly, useful predictions) of how people who happen to follow Belief System X actually behave. I'm not qualified to speculate on what's most likely to happen in the Middle East, northern Africa or Central Asia in the next 50 years, but I'm sure the answers won't be found in the Koran, any more than the explanations for the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Spanish Conquest, or Manifest Destiny can be found in the Gospels. Religious texts and institutions might play central roles--in tandem with scores of other factors--in defining (ideal) value systems, everyday customs, conceptual vocabulary and other aspects of a given culture, but in and of themselves, they're extremely poor guides for explaining and predicting human behavior. (And said behavior itself includes how religious teachings are interpreted, propagated, and integrated into a given nation's social and political agenda at a given point in time.)
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There just aren't too many well-versed-in-the-Quran-and-Hadith types in here
Do we even have any? Have we ever? I've been coming here for 2 years, and I've read through huge swathes of the FYM archives, and I don't recall ever noticing a regular contributor who appeared to have truly extensive intellectual knowledge of any belief system other than Christianity. But perhaps I've missed something (apologies to said individual[s] if I have)?

From my pathetically limited knowledge of Islam, I can't help wondering if that "-and-Hadith" part isn't particularly symptomatic of this problem, too: I mean, symptomatic of our general lack of awareness of Islam as a broader historic and cultural phenomenon than the little slice of place and time that's captured in the pages of the Koran. Considering Christian texts, ideas and institutions is different, because we're coming at them from inside a culture that's been profoundly influenced by these texts (and had tremendous influence on them, interpretation-wise) for over a millennium now, and there's a (relative) intimacy and ease in orienting ourselves to the worldview they present--and the historic transformations that worldview has passed through--that we really do take for granted. One frustration I've often felt discussing Judaism with Christians is that there's so seldom any real awareness of the Jewish experience, beyond having read the Old Testament and studied the Holocaust in school, for me to use as a starting-off point. No concept of what Mishna or Talmud or Responsa are like; never heard of Maimonides or the Besht or Buber; never learned about the expulsion of the Sephardim or the origins of ghettos and shtetls or the roots of Zionism in--no, not the Bible!--19th-century European nationalist thought. It's not that I expect any of this knowledge--we're demographically insignificant in the grand scheme of things, after all--but...I cannot condense an entire 4000-year-old cultural world into 10 minutes...especially when I have to spend 7 of them getting around the "Christianity, Act I" tendency, with everything that's happened since (and plenty of what happened before and even during that) somehow being expected to be fully explicable with reference to some Old Testament passage!

I have to imagine that Muslims in dialogue with Westerners (me included) must often feel the same--and all the more so, since Islam unfolded on a much vaster stage with so many more actors (and so much fewer points of contact historically).
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Old 06-24-2006, 10:40 AM   #34
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Originally posted by Judah
I think the reason you're not getting many defenders to your Quranic questions is probably, you know, demographics. There just aren't too many well-versed-in-the-Quran-and-Hadith types in here
Judging by many of the posts in FYM - there aren't too man well-versed-in-the-Bible types either, but that certainly doesn't keep them from crtiticizing the Bible.

I am just pointing out the general hypocrisy of attacking Christianity and leaving Islam alone.

It seems that the "extremist" Muslims are the ones who are actually doing what Mohammed would do (and did). It is not a stretch for any terrorist to justify what they do in the Quran. On the other hand, it would be an impossible task for a Christian to justify such activity in the New Testament.

I do not think many people would argue against the fact that LOVE is the theme of the New Testament. Love God. Love your neighbor. Love your enemies. Right? The usual battle is actually living up to that Highest Law - and that's where Christians can fail, by not being loving enough.

Can you say the same thing about the Quran? About Mohammed himself? Compare his life with the life of Jesus Christ and tell me which one should a "Liberal" want to emulate?

In my opinion, it seems the political left should be doing everything in its power to stop the spread of this religion and way of thinking. It is the very essence of intolerance.
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Old 06-24-2006, 11:04 AM   #35
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Originally posted by yolland

Religious texts and institutions might play central roles--in tandem with scores of other factors--in defining (ideal) value systems, everyday customs, conceptual vocabulary and other aspects of a given culture, but in and of themselves, they're extremely poor guides for explaining and predicting human behavior. (And said behavior itself includes how religious teachings are interpreted, propagated, and integrated into a given nation's social and political agenda at a given point in time.)
Yolland - this was a great post! It is very true.

In another thread -when you have time - do you think you could post a little more information on the Jewish historical and religious experience that is NOT Christianity Part I I am very interested and you seem like someone with knowledge of the subject.
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Old 06-24-2006, 11:04 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON

Judging by many of the posts in FYM - there aren't too man well-versed-in-the-Bible types either, but that certainly doesn't keep them from crtiticizing the Bible.

I am just pointing out the general hypocrisy of attacking Christianity and leaving Islam alone.

It seems that the "extremist" Muslims are the ones who are actually doing what Mohammed would do (and did). It is not a stretch for any terrorist to justify what they do in the Quran. On the other hand, it would be an impossible task for a Christian to justify such activity in the New Testament.

I do not think many people would argue against the fact that LOVE is the theme of the New Testament. Love God. Love your neighbor. Love your enemies. Right? The usual battle is actually living up to that Highest Law - and that's where Christians can fail, by not being loving enough.

Can you say the same thing about the Quran? About Mohammed himself? Compare his life with the life of Jesus Christ and tell me which one should a "Liberal" want to emulate?

In my opinion, it seems the political left should be doing everything in its power to stop the spread of this religion and way of thinking. It is the very essence of intolerance.
"Holy snapping duck shit, Batman" as my husband would say...

It seems every sentence written here is faulty.
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Old 06-24-2006, 11:06 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON

In my opinion, it seems the political left should be doing everything in its power to stop the spread of this religion and way of thinking. It is the very essence of intolerance.
I think intolerance can and does exist in any country, any culture, and any religion.
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Old 06-24-2006, 11:10 AM   #38
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Originally posted by Angela Harlem


"Holy snapping duck shit, Batman" as my husband would say...

It seems every sentence written here is faulty.
Care to back that up with some reasoning?
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Old 06-24-2006, 11:27 AM   #39
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I'll learn not to do this at 1am one of these days...However, here is mine. Unlike yours, as will be pointed out.

"Judging by many of the posts in FYM - there aren't too man well-versed-in-the-Bible types either, but that certainly doesn't keep them from crtiticizing the Bible."

This is a grand assumption. Grand in it's sweeping encompassing of a relatively large group of people as being overall ignorant; and also rather brave considering you're relatively new and are not familiar with a great many backgrounds? You'd find there are quite a few well versed on both sides of the Christianity fence.

"I am just pointing out the general hypocrisy of attacking Christianity and leaving Islam alone. "

What is this based on? FYM? People you know offline? A presence of Christianity critical posting on here does not denote there is not similar for Islam. Christianity is around us all far more than Islam. It is more pressing and definitely more present, hence it's frequency as a topic.

"It seems that the "extremist" Muslims are the ones who are actually doing what Mohammed would do (and did). It is not a stretch for any terrorist to justify what they do in the Quran. On the other hand, it would be an impossible task for a Christian to justify such activity in the New Testament. "

I've heard rumours that Mohammed was a just prophet. Fair. Loved and respected women. I've heard that the Koran is as misinterpreted as the Bible. Unbelievable, isn't it?

"I do not think many people would argue against the fact that LOVE is the theme of the New Testament. Love God. Love your neighbor. Love your enemies. Right? The usual battle is actually living up to that Highest Law - and that's where Christians can fail, by not being loving enough."

It's also where the church nearly drowns in a giant vat of it's own steaming vile hypocrisy by not doing what is purports. I've tried at length many times in the past to get answers from the conservatives on here, and failed miserably. It is either ignored or taken on a journey of irrelevance.

"Can you say the same thing about the Quran? About Mohammed himself? Compare his life with the life of Jesus Christ and tell me which one should a "Liberal" want to emulate?"

Why is Liberal in inverted commas? Are you insulting Liberals or followers of the Koran? Nice and tolerant, by the way. However. I will state I'm not as familiar with Mohammed as I am with the stories about Jesus - but i'm also not Islamic.

"In my opinion, it seems the political left should be doing everything in its power to stop the spread of this religion and way of thinking. It is the very essence of intolerance. "

At first I thought this was a joke, a play on words. Really. Then I realised you were dead serious. Dude, dont speak of intolerance as a reason for wiping out another religion. It is the very essence of intolerance.
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Old 06-24-2006, 11:34 AM   #40
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Quote:
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"Holy snapping duck shit, Batman" as my husband would say...

It seems every sentence written here is faulty.
Angela I love you!
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Old 06-24-2006, 11:39 AM   #41
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Originally posted by AEON

In my opinion, it seems the political left should be doing everything in its power to stop the spread of this religion and way of thinking. It is the very essence of intolerance.

I'm not going to pay attention to anyone with this kind of intolerance of an entire religious tradition. It just may be the most ignorant post I've ever read in FYM. Screw it, buster.
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Old 06-24-2006, 11:40 AM   #42
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Originally posted by AEON

Judging by many of the posts in FYM - there aren't too man well-versed-in-the-Bible types either, but that certainly doesn't keep them from crtiticizing the Bible.

I am just pointing out the general hypocrisy of attacking Christianity and leaving Islam alone.
No, there are plenty who are well versed in the bible in this forum. They may not share your belief system about what the book means today. That does not make them any less versed than you.

There have been plenty of threads in here about Islam. Many started by myself. I have been accused of intolorance because of them.

Maybe you should worry about making such sweaping generalizations about members of this community after 100 posts or so.

Most of us in here have been able to debate respectfully without backhanded comments.
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Old 06-24-2006, 11:42 AM   #43
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I'm not going to pay attention to anyone with this kind of intolerance of an entire religious tradition. Screw it, buster.
Verte...it has been a while since I have seen you use your favorite symbol.

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Old 06-24-2006, 11:45 AM   #44
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Then shout out and hijack your religion back from the extremist! Fight against this!
Thank goodness the liberal christians are here in America to do this!
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Old 06-24-2006, 11:55 AM   #45
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Thank goodness the liberal christians are here in America to do this!
Indeed. And yet I get accused of ignoring "God's Will" for doing just that.

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