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Old 06-23-2006, 06:18 PM   #16
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Originally posted by Irvine511






but a question: hasn't Christianity had the same historical problem with such extremism? what were the Crusades?
That was hundreds of years ago. Thats the old crusade. Today we are living a new act in Crusades and Jihads.
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Old 06-23-2006, 06:45 PM   #17
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One big difference is that Christ never taught to kill or convert. Those Christians that do are doing things in the name of Christ, but are not actually doing what Christ commanded them to do.

The same cannot be said regarding Islam. Not only did Mohammed teach this principle, he lived it.
Well, a lot of everything comes down to interpretation with these religious texts that are supposed to be the actual words of God.

Islam, or the Koran, doesn't teach to kill. Though it does have detailed rules of engagement for war and prisoners of war and what not. And the Koran forbids compulsion (i.e. forced conversion to Islam):

http://www.themodernreligion.com/ter...sm_verses1.htm

[Koranic Verse]2:256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing.

[Koranic Verse]16:82 But if they turn away from you, (O Prophet remember that) your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message (entrusted to you).

-------------

As Irvine said, that, of course, doesn't mean that historically Moslems and their rulers haven't misused the Koran to wreak havoc on conquered peoples and lands.
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Old 06-23-2006, 06:49 PM   #18
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As Irvine said, that, of course, doesn't mean that historically Moslems and their rulers haven't misused the Koran to wreak havoc on conquered peoples and lands.


indeed.

Islam isn't the problem.

the problem is the belief system of religion itself, not any particular relgion. it's historical circumstance that brings the worst out of every religion -- the Muslim world is currently plagued by myriad problems, from rampant unemployment to a combined GDP less than that of Spain to crushing Western-supported dictatorships. hence, these factors tend to tease out the worst potential of the religion.
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Old 06-23-2006, 07:26 PM   #19
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Direct quotes from the Quran:

ANNOUNCE PAINFUL PUNISHMENT TO THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE (9:3)

O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred... (8:65)

Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve (8:55)

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah...And the Jews say Ezra is the son of God; and the Christians say Christ is the son of God; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; Allah's curse be on them; how they are turned away!" (Koran 9:29-30)

And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah (8:39)

When the sacred months have passed away, THEN SLAY THE IDOLATERS WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM, AND TAKE THEM CAPTIVES AND BESIEGE THEM AND LIE IN WAIT FOR THEM IN EVERY AMBUSH, then if they repent and keep up prayer [become believers] and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them (9:5)

And if they intend to act unfaithfully towards you, so indeed they acted unfaithfully towards Allah before, but He GAVE YOU MASTERY OVER THEM (8:71)

FIGHT THEM: ALLAH WILL PUNISH THEM BY YOUR HANDS AND BRING THEM TO DISGRACE, AND ASSIST YOU AGAINST THEM. (9:14)

FIGHT THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN ALLAH, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, NOR FOLLOW THE RELIGION OF TRUTH, OUT OF THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN GIVEN THE BOOK [Christians and Jews], until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and THEY ARE IN A STATE OF SUBJECTION. (9:29)

O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination. (9:73)

O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil). (9:123)

I WILL CAST TERROR INTO THE HEARTS OF THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE. THEREFORE STRIKE OFF THEIR HEADS AND STRIKE OFF EVERY FINGERTIP OF THEM. THIS IS BECAUSE THEY ACTED ADVERSELY TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER; AND WHOEVER ACTS ADVERSELY TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER - THEN SURELY ALLAH IS SEVERE IN REQUITING (EVIL). THIS - TASTE IT, AND (KNOW) THAT FOR THE UNBELIEVERS IS THE PUNISHMENT OF FIRE. O you who believe! When you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them. And whoever shall turn his back to them on that day - unless he turn aside for the sake of fighting or withdraws to a company - then he, indeed, becomes deserving of Allah's wrath, and his abode is hell; and an evil destination shall it be. So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy) but it was Allah Who smote, and that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself; (8:12-17)

And that you should judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires, and be cautious of them, lest they seduce you from part of what Allah has revealed to you; but if they turn back, then know that Allah desires to afflict them on account of some of their faults; and most surely many of the people are transgressors. Is it then the judgment of the times of ignorance that they desire: and who is better than Allah to judge for a people who are sure? O YOU WHO BELIEVE! DO NOT TAKE THE JEWS AND THE CHRISTIANS FOR FRIENDS; THEY ARE FRIENDS OF EACH OTHER; AND WHOEVER AMONGST YOU TAKES THEM FOR A FRIEND, THEN SURELY HE IS ONE OF THEM; SURELY ALLAH DOES NOT GUIDE THE UNJUST PEOPLE. (5:49-51)

The punishment of those who pit themselves against Allah and His Messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement, except those who repent before you have them in your power (5:33-34)

Believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one god: far be it from his glory that He should have a son. (4:171)

What is the matter with you, then, that you have become two parties about the hypocrites, while Allah has made them return (to unbelief) for what they have earned? Do you wish to guide him whom Allah has caused to err? And whomsoever Allah causes to err, you shall by no means find a way for him. THEY DESIRE THAT YOU SHOULD DISBELIEVE AS THEY HAVE DISBELIEVED, SO THAT YOU MIGHT BE ALL ALIKE; THEREFORE TAKE NOT FROM AMONG THEM FRIENDS UNTIL THEY FLY THEIR HOMES IN ALLAH'S WAY; BUT IF THEY TURN BACK, THEN SEIZE THEM AND KILL THEM WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM, AND TAKE NOT FROM AMONG THEM A FRIEND OR A HELPER. (4:89)

As for those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the punishment (4:56)

Surely they who disbelieve in the communications of Allah - they shall have a severe punishment; and Allah is Mighty, the lord of retribution. (3:4)

Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to forgive him.)" (Hadith 4:52:196)

Allah's Apostles said, "When a slave (of Allah) commits illegal sexual intercourse, he is not a believer at the time of committing it; and if he steals, he is not a believer at the time of stealing; and if he drinks an alcoholic drink, when he is not a believer at the time of drinking it; and he is not a believer when he commits a murder," 'Ikrima said: I asked Ibn Abbas, "How is faith taken away from him?" He said, Like this," by clasping his hands and then separating them, and added, "But if he repents, faith returns to him like this, by clasping his hands again. (Hadith 8:82:800e [So, with the clap of a hand, they can do whatever they want?]

The Prophet said, "The one who commits an illegal sexual intercourse is not a believer at the time of committing illegal sexual intercourse and a thief is not a believer at the time of committing theft and a drinker of alcoholic drink is not a believer at the time of drinking. Yet, (the gate of) repentance is open thereafter." (Hadith 8:82:801)

(Isolated incident) ...then prostrated himself, and all who were with him prostrated too. But an old man took a handful of dust and touched his forehead with it saying, "This is sufficient for me." Later on I saw him killed as an infidel. (Hadith 5:59:311)

[yes the Jews and Muslims are both descendents of Abraham, but here is the attitude towards descendants of Abraham through Isaac (the Jews]: "If they find you, they will be your enemies, and will stretch forth towards you their hands and their tongues with evil, and they ardently desire that you may disbelieve. Your relationship would not profit you, nor your children, on the day of resurrection; He will decide between you; and Allah sees what you do. Indeed, there is for you a good example in Abraham and those with him when they said to their people: Surely we are clear of you and of what you serve besides Allah; WE DECLARE OURSELVES TO BE CLEAR OF YOU, AND ENMITY AND HATRED HAVE APPEARED BETWEEN US AND YOU FOREVER UNTIL YOU BELIEVE IN ALLAH ALONE (60:2-4)
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Old 06-23-2006, 07:39 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
indeed.

Islam isn't the problem.

the problem is the belief system of religion itself, not any particular relgion. it's historical circumstance that brings the worst out of every religion -- the Muslim world is currently plagued by myriad problems, from rampant unemployment to a combined GDP less than that of Spain to crushing Western-supported dictatorships. hence, these factors tend to tease out the worst potential of the religion.
If you are going to pan back far enough to this level of generality, you really need to include any belief system (religious or secular). A dynamic leader with an appealing message can bring the worst out of people.
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Old 06-23-2006, 08:31 PM   #21
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Man...where are all the critics of the Quran? I mean, if you post something from the Bible - within minutes you receive a half dozen attacks about the Scripture.

Why is the Quran getting a free pass here?
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Old 06-23-2006, 09:23 PM   #22
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Some quotes from the Bible:

Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. Isaiah 14:21

Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. Jeremiah 48:10

Each of you must put to death those of your men who have joined in worshiping the Baal of Peor. Numbers 25:5

If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them," 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. 9 You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Deuteronomy 13 1-10
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Old 06-23-2006, 09:33 PM   #23
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Aeon it's because we must be sensitive with Islam as it's the new "It's not cool to pick on a religion and certain numbers of it's people."
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Old 06-23-2006, 09:59 PM   #24
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BVS, how many of those verses are used to inspire Christian action today?
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Old 06-23-2006, 10:01 PM   #25
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Quoting the Old Testament BonoVox is not a criticism of Islam. That would be another thread. In addition, you have made it ubundantly clear in other threads you do not regard what the Old Testament says.

And Islam is not THAT new. It's been around for about 1500 years.

I just find it a bit funny that we can get pages of pages responses regarding Biblical quotes regarding homosexuality - but it seems like nobody has a problem with these passages from a religion that has over a billion believers. Not only does the Quran teach that being gay is wrong, they also teach they would cut off your head for not accepting Muhammed as your prophet.
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Old 06-23-2006, 10:11 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
BVS, how many of those verses are used to inspire Christian action today?
I'm just proving the point that any verse out of any religious book can be taken as a call to arms when taken out of context.

Are there some that take these verses in Quran as a call to arms? Yes. Is it a majority? No.

And I find it very interesting when someone pastes a few verses that they found on the internet or got in an email, but probably haven't actually read the Quran.
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Old 06-23-2006, 10:12 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON
Quoting the Old Testament BonoVox is not a criticism of Islam. That would be another thread. In addition, you have made it ubundantly clear in other threads you do not regard what the Old Testament says.

And Islam is not THAT new. It's been around for about 1500 years.

I just find it a bit funny that we can get pages of pages responses regarding Biblical quotes regarding homosexuality - but it seems like nobody has a problem with these passages from a religion that has over a billion believers. Not only does the Quran teach that being gay is wrong, they also teach they would cut off your head for not accepting Muhammed as your prophet.
You missed my point by a mile.
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Old 06-23-2006, 10:20 PM   #28
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Bonovox - Are you saying you do not have a problem with the above passages? Do you believe they are a translation error?

I have read most of the Quran. It is very difficult to read. If you think Leviticus is tough to get through - I challenge you to pick up a Quran...tough tough stuff.

The topic of war, revenge, and murdering non-believers is a prevalent theme throughout the book. So is womanizing and the complete subjugation of women.

I don't suppose you agree with what the Quran teaches about women do you?

It is amazing that you will not concern yourself with a call to saw your head off, but you are so upset that some Christians won't allow a lesbian Bishop.
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Old 06-23-2006, 10:35 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON
Bonovox - Are you saying you do not have a problem with the above passages? Do you believe they are a translation error?
I didn't say that. I was just making the point that anyone could cut and paste and make a religion look violent.

Quote:
Originally posted by AEON

The topic of war, revenge, and murdering non-believers is a prevalent theme throughout the book. So is womanizing and the complete subjugation of women.

I don't suppose you agree with what the Quran teaches about women do you?
Um, have you read the Bible. It's full of war, God killing people, killing non-believers and the subjugation of women.

I also don't agree with the literalist teaches of the Bible about women.

Quote:
Originally posted by AEON

It is amazing that you will not concern yourself with a call to saw your head off, but you are so upset that some Christians won't allow a lesbian Bishop.
It's amazing to me that you don't get it.
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Old 06-23-2006, 10:46 PM   #30
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I do not think I need to do some fancy cutting and pasting to make Islam look violent.

This thread is not about the Bible - but I challenge you to come up with similar passages from the New Testament. Almost everyoe agrees that Jesus was about peace - and even the Quran calls him a great teacher. The same cannot be said about Muhammed - in either is actions in life nor his teachings.

I am still waiting for someone to defend the passages I pasted. Belive me - I would like to be wrong about them. They sort of remind me of the Chronicles of Riddick...

It is obvious you are selective about the religions you choose to criticize. That's cool But please understand - the tolerance you receive from Christians is an ocean compared to the drips of tolerance Islam offers.
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