Islamic Iconoclasm

[BVS]

I am still waiting for someone to defend the passages I pasted. Belive me - I would like to be wrong about them. They sort of remind me of the Chronicles of Riddick...

Well the amount of people knowledgeable enough to put it in context that frequent this forum is small so it may be awhile.

It is obvious you are selective about the religions you choose to criticize. That's cool But please understand - the tolerance you receive from Christians is an ocean compared to the drips of tolerance Islam offers.

What does this mean? Have I defended this religion somehow? I admit I'm not that knowledgeable to defend or criticize. And this is my point.

I see a lot of people criticizing the religion and know absolutley nothing about it except for the extremist they see on TV. It would be as if someone's only exposure to Christianinty is Jerry Falwell or the folks from Westboro Baptist Church and they criticized the religion based on them and these verses that I showed.

 

[Judah]

I do not think I need to do some fancy cutting and pasting to make Islam look violent.

This thread is not about the Bible - but I challenge you to come up with similar passages from the New Testament. Almost everyoe agrees that Jesus was about peace - and even the Quran calls him a great teacher. The same cannot be said about Muhammed - in either is actions in life nor his teachings.

I am still waiting for someone to defend the passages I pasted. Belive me - I would like to be wrong about them. They sort of remind me of the Chronicles of Riddick...

It is obvious you are selective about the religions you choose to criticize. That's cool But please understand - the tolerance you receive from Christians is an ocean compared to the drips of tolerance Islam offers.

AEON, i'm no Moslem apologist (see my other posts in the Sunni-Shia topic), but i've seen those quotes above many times from anti-Islamic sites and followed debates on the (pro-Christian) Answering Islam website and the (pro-Islam) Answering Christianity website.

For some of the questions you posed, people may want to see how Moslems answer these...here:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac17.htm#links

Question 56 attempts to answer the "kill all non-believers" stuff...there are other topics, including the treatment of women. Not sure this is the best site for these answers...there are probably some better, more objective (or, at least, more academic) sites, but i haven't done a detailed enough search.

I think the reason you're not getting many defenders to your Quranic questions is probably, you know, demographics. There just aren't too many well-versed-in-the-Quran-and-Hadith types in here (including myself...i've read the Quran in Arabic, Urdu and English...and fuck if i know what the hell it's talking about most of the time; but, you know, i say the same thing about the Bible, which i've also read...when it comes to sprituality, i try to feel my way through my internal thoughts/feelings/emotions, instead of relying upon or trying to decipher thousands of years old of (probably corrupted) religious stories/propaganda, no matter how "universal" and "eternal" the words are purported to be).

[Ah, shit...did i just offend ALL religions? Watch Answering Christianity AND Answering Islam get on my ass now. Let it be known that me not getting religion is a deficiency in me, and (probably) not the religions. No, wait, i can't say this...now my spinelessness has offended all my Athiest brothers and sisters. Some days, ya can't win.]

 

[yolland]

If you are going to pan back far enough to this level of generality, you really need to include any belief system (religious or secular). A dynamic leader with an appealing message can bring the worst out of people.

I agree...but I also think you have to pan back to that level to offer meaningful analyses (and perhaps more importantly, useful predictions) of how people who happen to follow Belief System X actually behave. I'm not qualified to speculate on what's most likely to happen in the Middle East, northern Africa or Central Asia in the next 50 years, but I'm sure the answers won't be found in the Koran, any more than the explanations for the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Spanish Conquest, or Manifest Destiny can be found in the Gospels. Religious texts and institutions might play central roles--in tandem with scores of other factors--in defining (ideal) value systems, everyday customs, conceptual vocabulary and other aspects of a given culture, but in and of themselves, they're extremely poor guides for explaining and predicting human behavior. (And said behavior itself includes how religious teachings are interpreted, propagated, and integrated into a given nation's social and political agenda at a given point in time.)

There just aren't too many well-versed-in-the-Quran-and-Hadith types in here

Do we even have any? Have we ever? I've been coming here for 2 years, and I've read through huge swathes of the FYM archives, and I don't recall ever noticing a regular contributor who appeared to have truly extensive intellectual knowledge of any belief system other than Christianity. But perhaps I've missed something (apologies to said individual if I have)?

From my pathetically limited knowledge of Islam, I can't help wondering if that "-and-Hadith" part isn't particularly symptomatic of this problem, too: I mean, symptomatic of our general lack of awareness of Islam as a broader historic and cultural phenomenon than the little slice of place and time that's captured in the pages of the Koran. Considering Christian texts, ideas and institutions is different, because we're coming at them from inside a culture that's been profoundly influenced by these texts (and had tremendous influence on them, interpretation-wise) for over a millennium now, and there's a (relative) intimacy and ease in orienting ourselves to the worldview they present--and the historic transformations that worldview has passed through--that we really do take for granted. One frustration I've often felt discussing Judaism with Christians is that there's so seldom any real awareness of the Jewish experience, beyond having read the Old Testament and studied the Holocaust in school, for me to use as a starting-off point. No concept of what Mishna or Talmud or Responsa are like; never heard of Maimonides or the Besht or Buber; never learned about the expulsion of the Sephardim or the origins of ghettos and shtetls or the roots of Zionism in--no, not the Bible!--19th-century European nationalist thought. It's not that I expect any of this knowledge--we're demographically insignificant in the grand scheme of things, after all--but...I cannot condense an entire 4000-year-old cultural world into 10 minutes...especially when I have to spend 7 of them getting around the "Christianity, Act I" tendency, with everything that's happened since (and plenty of what happened before and even during that) somehow being expected to be fully explicable with reference to some Old Testament passage!

I have to imagine that Muslims in dialogue with Westerners (me included) must often feel the same--and all the more so, since Islam unfolded on a much vaster stage with so many more actors (and so much fewer points of contact historically).

 

[AEON]

I think the reason you're not getting many defenders to your Quranic questions is probably, you know, demographics. There just aren't too many well-versed-in-the-Quran-and-Hadith types in here

Judging by many of the posts in FYM - there aren't too man well-versed-in-the-Bible types either, but that certainly doesn't keep them from crtiticizing the Bible.

I am just pointing out the general hypocrisy of attacking Christianity and leaving Islam alone.

It seems that the "extremist" Muslims are the ones who are actually doing what Mohammed would do (and did). It is not a stretch for any terrorist to justify what they do in the Quran. On the other hand, it would be an impossible task for a Christian to justify such activity in the New Testament.

I do not think many people would argue against the fact that LOVE is the theme of the New Testament. Love God. Love your neighbor. Love your enemies. Right? The usual battle is actually living up to that Highest Law - and that's where Christians can fail, by not being loving enough.

Can you say the same thing about the Quran? About Mohammed himself? Compare his life with the life of Jesus Christ and tell me which one should a "Liberal" want to emulate?

In my opinion, it seems the political left should be doing everything in its power to stop the spread of this religion and way of thinking. It is the very essence of intolerance.

 

[AEON]

Religious texts and institutions might play central roles--in tandem with scores of other factors--in defining (ideal) value systems, everyday customs, conceptual vocabulary and other aspects of a given culture, but in and of themselves, they're extremely poor guides for explaining and predicting human behavior. (And said behavior itself includes how religious teachings are interpreted, propagated, and integrated into a given nation's social and political agenda at a given point in time.)

Yolland - this was a great post! It is very true.

In another thread -when you have time - do you think you could post a little more information on the Jewish historical and religious experience that is NOT Christianity Part I I am very interested and you seem like someone with knowledge of the subject.

 

[Angela Harlem]

Judging by many of the posts in FYM - there aren't too man well-versed-in-the-Bible types either, but that certainly doesn't keep them from crtiticizing the Bible.

I am just pointing out the general hypocrisy of attacking Christianity and leaving Islam alone.

It seems that the "extremist" Muslims are the ones who are actually doing what Mohammed would do (and did). It is not a stretch for any terrorist to justify what they do in the Quran. On the other hand, it would be an impossible task for a Christian to justify such activity in the New Testament.

I do not think many people would argue against the fact that LOVE is the theme of the New Testament. Love God. Love your neighbor. Love your enemies. Right? The usual battle is actually living up to that Highest Law - and that's where Christians can fail, by not being loving enough.

Can you say the same thing about the Quran? About Mohammed himself? Compare his life with the life of Jesus Christ and tell me which one should a "Liberal" want to emulate?

In my opinion, it seems the political left should be doing everything in its power to stop the spread of this religion and way of thinking. It is the very essence of intolerance.

"Holy snapping duck shit, Batman" as my husband would say...

It seems every sentence written here is faulty.

 

[ntalwar]

In my opinion, it seems the political left should be doing everything in its power to stop the spread of this religion and way of thinking. It is the very essence of intolerance.

I think intolerance can and does exist in any country, any culture, and any religion.

 

[AEON]

"Holy snapping duck shit, Batman" as my husband would say...

It seems every sentence written here is faulty.

Care to back that up with some reasoning?

 

[Angela Harlem]

I'll learn not to do this at 1am one of these days...However, here is mine. Unlike yours, as will be pointed out.

"Judging by many of the posts in FYM - there aren't too man well-versed-in-the-Bible types either, but that certainly doesn't keep them from crtiticizing the Bible."

This is a grand assumption. Grand in it's sweeping encompassing of a relatively large group of people as being overall ignorant; and also rather brave considering you're relatively new and are not familiar with a great many backgrounds? You'd find there are quite a few well versed on both sides of the Christianity fence.

"I am just pointing out the general hypocrisy of attacking Christianity and leaving Islam alone. "

What is this based on? FYM? People you know offline? A presence of Christianity critical posting on here does not denote there is not similar for Islam. Christianity is around us all far more than Islam. It is more pressing and definitely more present, hence it's frequency as a topic.

"It seems that the "extremist" Muslims are the ones who are actually doing what Mohammed would do (and did). It is not a stretch for any terrorist to justify what they do in the Quran. On the other hand, it would be an impossible task for a Christian to justify such activity in the New Testament. "

I've heard rumours that Mohammed was a just prophet. Fair. Loved and respected women. I've heard that the Koran is as misinterpreted as the Bible. Unbelievable, isn't it?

"I do not think many people would argue against the fact that LOVE is the theme of the New Testament. Love God. Love your neighbor. Love your enemies. Right? The usual battle is actually living up to that Highest Law - and that's where Christians can fail, by not being loving enough."

It's also where the church nearly drowns in a giant vat of it's own steaming vile hypocrisy by not doing what is purports. I've tried at length many times in the past to get answers from the conservatives on here, and failed miserably. It is either ignored or taken on a journey of irrelevance.

"Can you say the same thing about the Quran? About Mohammed himself? Compare his life with the life of Jesus Christ and tell me which one should a "Liberal" want to emulate?"

Why is Liberal in inverted commas? Are you insulting Liberals or followers of the Koran? Nice and tolerant, by the way. However. I will state I'm not as familiar with Mohammed as I am with the stories about Jesus - but i'm also not Islamic.

"In my opinion, it seems the political left should be doing everything in its power to stop the spread of this religion and way of thinking. It is the very essence of intolerance. "

At first I thought this was a joke, a play on words. Really. Then I realised you were dead serious. Dude, dont speak of intolerance as a reason for wiping out another religion. It is the very essence of intolerance.

 

[Dreadsox]

"Holy snapping duck shit, Batman" as my husband would say...

It seems every sentence written here is faulty.

Angela I love you!

 

[verte76]

In my opinion, it seems the political left should be doing everything in its power to stop the spread of this religion and way of thinking. It is the very essence of intolerance.

I'm not going to pay attention to anyone with this kind of intolerance of an entire religious tradition. It just may be the most ignorant post I've ever read in FYM. Screw it, buster.

 

[Dreadsox]

Judging by many of the posts in FYM - there aren't too man well-versed-in-the-Bible types either, but that certainly doesn't keep them from crtiticizing the Bible.

I am just pointing out the general hypocrisy of attacking Christianity and leaving Islam alone.

No, there are plenty who are well versed in the bible in this forum. They may not share your belief system about what the book means today. That does not make them any less versed than you.

There have been plenty of threads in here about Islam. Many started by myself. I have been accused of intolorance because of them.

Maybe you should worry about making such sweaping generalizations about members of this community after 100 posts or so.

Most of us in here have been able to debate respectfully without backhanded comments.

 

[Dreadsox]

I'm not going to pay attention to anyone with this kind of intolerance of an entire religious tradition. Screw it, buster.

Verte...it has been a while since I have seen you use your favorite symbol.

 

[Dreadsox]

Then shout out and hijack your religion back from the extremist! Fight against this!

Thank goodness the liberal christians are here in America to do this!

 

[melon]

Thank goodness the liberal christians are here in America to do this!

Indeed. And yet I get accused of ignoring "God's Will" for doing just that.

Melon

 

[AEON]

Dude, dont speak of intolerance as a reason for wiping out another religion. It is the very essence of intolerance.

Fair enough, you have backed up you earlier comment.

However, regarding this line of thought - was it intolerant to stop the spread of Nazism and Hitler? (if you don't think Nazism, at its core, was a religion - you need to look into what went on in the Third Reich)

I think Conservatives and Liberals in the West agree on one thing - Freedom. Of course, we may go back and forth on to the degree which that should and should not exist, but that is essentially the starting point.

If opposing a way of thinking that essentially wants my death is intolerance, then I guess I am guilty of intolerance. But let me ask you, if a group of people we will call "Group Y" landed on your shore and said you need to convert to "Religion X" or die - would you think it is intolerance to stop that? Or in the name of "tolerance" you would join the religion - therefore affirming Religion X's intolerance?

My basic point in all of this is still not addressed. If the quotes I posted from the Quran are true and not taken out of context - would you have a problem with that line of thinking?

 

[Judah]

http://www.dummies.com/WileyCDA/DummiesTitle/productCd-0764555030.html

I'm ordering mine.

AEON said: I do not think many people would argue against the fact that LOVE is the theme of the New Testament. Love God. Love your neighbor. Love your enemies. Right? The usual battle is actually living up to that Highest Law - and that's where Christians can fail, by not being loving enough.

Can you say the same thing about the Quran? About Mohammed himself? Compare his life with the life of Jesus Christ and tell me which one should a "Liberal" want to emulate?

---------

Some have compared the lives. Here's a book:

http://www.astrolabe.com/product/391/Jesus_and_Muhammad:_The_Parallel_Sayings.html

"Jesus and Muhammad (S): The Parallel Sayings. This book compares the parables of Jesus with the teachings of Prophet Muhammad (S), from the Quran and Hadith (sayings) to show that Christianity's core values — love, compassion, peace, forgiveness, and repentance — mirror the central tenets of Islam. Jesus and Mohammed closes the gap of understanding between Christians and Muslims and demonstrates that despite centuries of differences, the two religions possess a common moral and spiritual foundation. Example: When you give a luncheon or dinner, do not invite your friends, your brothers or relatives, or your rich neighbors; if you do, they may invite you back and so you will be repaid. But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous. Luke 14: 12-14 Let him who believes in God and the Last Day be generous to his neighbor, and let him who believes in God and the Last Day be generous to his guest." Forth Hadith of An-Nawawi 15

 

[melon]

I do not think many people would argue against the fact that LOVE is the theme of the New Testament. Love God. Love your neighbor. Love your enemies. Right? The usual battle is actually living up to that Highest Law - and that's where Christians can fail, by not being loving enough.

But as you can see, some people here define "love" as "strict adherence to God's commands." Likewise, I'm sure Islam defines "love" as "strict adherence to Allah's commands"--a.k.a. Sharia law. I'd also bet that liberal to moderate Muslims would be berated similarly to how you responded to my threads here on Christianity.

Frankly, I don't know many people who would consider themselves to be a self-identified extremist.

Melon

 

[AEON]

No, there are plenty who are well versed in the bible in this forum. They may not share your belief system about what the book means today. That does not make them any less versed than you.

There have been plenty of threads in here about Islam. Many started by myself. I have been accused of intolorance because of them.

Maybe you should worry about making such sweaping generalizations about members of this community after 100 posts or so.

Most of us in here have been able to debate respectfully without backhanded comments.

You are right, I over generalized on this post. It is the emotional, name calling posts that I was referring to. There are many others who do try to engage in a genuine discussion. And I do, sincerely, apologize to you and the others. I became a monster to beat a monster - so to speak

 

[AEON]

--------- Some have compared the l...times Mohammed - Mentioned in Quran 25 times

 

[nbcrusader]

Thank goodness the liberal christians are here in America to do this!

 

[AEON]

Maybe you should worry about making such sweaping generalizations about members of this community after 100 posts or so.

I have actually been lurking around here since 1999. Whie I have no proof - I can only ask that you trust me on this one.

 

[verte76]

Verte...it has been a while since I have seen you use your favorite symbol.

A thread that has morphed into an Islam-bashing thread is the perfect place for my favorite symbol.

 

[nbcrusader]

For all those in a fluster over AEON's statements, if you go back and look at the body of FYM posts, they would support some of the generalizations stated above.

It is not unusual for a thread on Islam to get a quick, unrelated interjection on Christianity "for balance".

Or perhaps it is best to just take a break from this place so that the displays of tolerance (as we find in the Pat Robertson and Ann Coulter threads and peppered elsewhere) can continue by those trying to "save" hijacked beliefs.

 

[AEON]

I realize there is a man my age somewhere in the Middle East, worrying about his own future, his wife, his family, the meaning of it all - many of the same things I worry about, but probably to a much bigger degree.

My heart truly goes out to such man because in the majority of the countries in the Middle East - he does not have the freedom to explore all of the different answers without the fear of death.

My heart goes out to the women who cannot attend school or speak out in public.

I am not sure of the root cause. Is it the religion? The culture? The economy? A combination of all these things? All I know is that I think that freedom is a fundamental right I think is worth fighting for.

Do I want to “fight” Islam? Yes – on a spiritual, intellectual level. I do not want to kill someone for believing one thing over another, I would hope to “convince” a Muslim of his errors in the same way a secular humanist wants to convince me of my errors.

The essential point here is freedom.

 

[Irvine511]

If you are going to pan back far enough to this level of generality, you really need to include any belief system (religious or secular). A dynamic leader with an appealing message can bring the worst out of people.

the difference, as i know we've been through before, is that God will always, always trump the nation, the nationality, the ethnicity, the economic philosophy, as being a motivator for suicidal violence. can another ethos be deadly? absolutely. but who do you answer to first? God, or the State?

it's the access to the infinite that makes religion and religious passion the most powerful force on earth.

i do think religion is unique.

 

[nbcrusader]

the difference, as i know we've been through before, is that God will always, always trump the nation, the nationality, the ethnicity, the economic philosophy, as being a motivator for suicidal violence. can another ethos be deadly? absolutely. but who do you answer to first? God, or the State?

it's the access to the infinite that makes religion and religious passion the most powerful force on earth.

i do think religion is unique.

God will be trump for those who seek God. The state, ideal, cause or other belief will be trump for those who put that first in their lives.

I understand your feeling that religion is unique. I'd ask, is religion unique as a motivator, or is it only unique for the negative motivations?

 

[verte76]

Aeon, it's your generalizations that are, quite frankly, really getting under my skin. I was just in a Muslim country of 72 million people, Turkey. Turkey is a completely secular state. Most of its population chooses to practice Islam, but any and all religions are legal. Women have equal rights with men. Hell, they've even had a female head of state, something we Americans can't say. It's useless comparing Jesus and Mohammed. They lived in different eras, in different places, in different cultures. Mohammed was a political leader married to a wealthy merchant. He's not considered God, thus it's misleading to call the religion Mohammedanism. He was trying to unite the Arabic world, and was definitely making progress on this front when he died. They were having a war a minute, and unity stopped this. The guy had enemies, and had to defend himself. These enemies wanted to kill him. What would you do if someone wanted to kill you?

 

[AEON]

It's useless comparing Jesus and Mohammed.

My comparison was in response to Judah's posting. You are right though, there is not much comparison.

Just to clarify something. Jesus was under attack during most of His ministry, and He was eventually killed in a very horrific manner. So were the most of the Apostles and the New Testament's most prolific writer - Paul.

If Muslims are not being asked to imitate the life of Mohammed, (as Christians are asked to imitate Jesus) then are they being asked to imitate anyone else?

 

[BVS]

Judging by many of the posts in FYM - there aren't too man well-versed-in-the-Bible types either, but that certainly doesn't keep them from crtiticizing the Bible.

Let's not forget who got the great commandment wrong...

It seems that the "extremist" Muslims are the ones who are actually doing what Mohammed would do (and did). It is not a stretch for any terrorist to justify what they do in the Quran. On the other hand, it would be an impossible task for a Christian to justify such activity in the New Testament.

I thought we're suppose to follow both books.

Can you say the same thing about the Quran? About Mohammed himself? Compare his life with the life of Jesus Christ and tell me which one should a "Liberal" want to emulate?

In my opinion, it seems the political left should be doing everything in its power to stop the spread of this religion and way of thinking. It is the very essence of intolerance.

Wow, this is just crap...