Is War Ever Justified?

[the iron horse]

"And its one two three...what are fighting for?

Don't ask me I don't give a ...."


What do you think?


What would your solution be to dealing with Hitler and the Nazi attack on humanity?

 

[verte76]

WWII, in my view, was a just war. The wars in Kosovo and Bosnia were just wars, because Milosevic had to be stopped. I'm not a pacifist. I used to be, then the Bosnia thing happened, and I've changed my overall political perspective several times since I became a registered voter.

 

[the iron horse]

"WWII, in my view, was a just war."


I agree.


*very glad the Allies won*

 

[Earnie Shavers]

Is war every justified? We call them Defence Departments for a reason. It kind of says it all. If it's genuinely defensive, be it defending yourself or sticking up for someone who can't defend themselves, it's just. Starting the offensive war is never just, and it's precisely that which makes the defensive war just. So... we come to the grey area in the middle where no doubt this thread is headed anyway... To look at recent examples, IN MY OPINION - Gulf War 1? Just. Kosovo? Just. Afghanistan? Just. Iraq II? Grey. And over all of this over the past few years, from the millions of analysis' over Iraqs real threat to anyone, from the arguments about what the UN said and meant and if even then it was the right course of action, from that versus the very real belief I personally have that Iraq deserved and needed better than Hussein and the great thing that it is that they could possibly have that, and now versus the very real threat that it has created a situation of chaos that will reign for years to come and has far greater potential to get far worse before it gets any better - I am still nowhere near convinced this was in any way 'just'. But that's just me.

 

[VertigoGal]

Yeah, war can absolutely be justified. Which fall under that would be open to a lot of interpretation obviously...

 

[Se7en]

no war between nations.
no peace between classes.

no war but class war.

 

[Sonoftelepunk]

This subject makes me recall a quote I once read. I'll be damned if I can remember the name, but it went something like this...

"War isn't the best solution to solve things, but it's often the only way to prevent them being solved for you."

 

[hiphop]

No, in my humble opinion war is never justified.

People [with an emphasis on people, not foreign armies] overthrowing a tyrant are justified.

War may be inevitable under certain circumstances, like Allies vs. Germans in WW II, but still, it ain´t justified.

 

[BVS]

I honestly think most wars could be prevented, if the right thing was done at the right time. Hitler was given far too much time and power. Same as many others.

Killing is never justified. But sometimes in this fucked up world the lesser of two evils is justified.

 

[STING2]

No, in my humble opinion war is never justified.

People [with an emphasis on people, not foreign armies] overthrowing a tyrant are justified.

War may be inevitable under certain circumstances, like Allies vs. Germans in WW II, but still, it ain´t justified.

I guess you and Bono will just have to agree to disagree on that one.

 

[Earnie Shavers]

Well, he's technically correct. War in WWII from the perspective of the Allies was justified (of course), but of course the Allies didn't start it, Hitler did, and that was not justified. So, maybe can we agree that the action of war is never just, but the reaction to it is? And STING, Bono was talking about Afghanistan (and by extension we know he would have meant that with at least Kosovo as well), so the US/Allies actions there were justified, but AQ's 'act of war' against the US? Of course not. Same thing. Note that Bono disagrees with the current action in Iraq - so he, like most, draws a line somewhere between justified and not.

 

[For Honor]

Wars are justified if you want them to be.


What do I think? War is petty. It's the lowest form of conflict.


You have to understad (I am guessing here) that to Hitler, he seemed perfectly justified in his actions.

His charisma upswept a nation in despair, gave them hope.


It's very much a mental thing, "war". A feeling much stronger than a thought....... the instant gratification, or intant emotion, rather, of killing, of killing an enemy, s omething bad, promoting survival, killing "for honor". For glory. For a heavenly kingdom, for virgins, for whatever.

I don't know.....

There are traditional reasons to go to war, and I can semi-respect them. As in, if you wanted to kill my family because you don't like the area/country I live in.

War is a mental thing, and it always will be. WIll war ever go away? I don't know. I don't have that much faith in mankind. However, I think it's damn well worth a shot, something to strive for.


Even America's independence war......
Unfortunately, that was justifiable, to an extent.

Why it wasn't justified was because the English side was refusing rights, etc etc etc.



When you talk about justification for a war, make sure you think about both sides. It's not weather it was acceptable for one side to go to war, as in defense. It's about the other side going to war.

Why did Enland fight back in America's war for independence? I don't really know, I'm no history major. But I suspect it's because they wanted to loose a profit on goods, etc, things like that.

That's not justifiable, in my mind.

They shouldn't have gone to war over that.



Does that make any sense?

 

[BrownEyedBoy]

We're living in 2005.

'Nuff said.

 

[hiphop]

I guess you and Bono will just have to agree to disagree on that one.

Yeah, and so what? I´m not on his payroll or anything

 

[STING2]

Well, he's technically correct. War in WWII from the perspective of the Allies was justified (of course), but of course the Allies didn't start it, Hitler did, and that was not justified. So, maybe can we agree that the action of war is never just, but the reaction to it is? And STING, Bono was talking about Afghanistan (and by extension we know he would have meant that with at least Kosovo as well), so the US/Allies actions there were justified, but AQ's 'act of war' against the US? Of course not. Same thing. Note that Bono disagrees with the current action in Iraq - so he, like most, draws a line somewhere between justified and not.

HIPHOP clearly stated he believes "war is never justified". Bono does not share that belief.

 

[STING2]

Yeah, and so what? I´m not on his payroll or anything

No, but he is on your payroll when you think about it.

 

[hiphop]

HIPHOP clearly stated he believes "war is never justified". Bono does not share that belief.

That´s true. However, I guess you and Abraham, or God for that matter, will have to agree to disagree on that one. The 6th commandment says thou shalt not kill. I never heard an added "except if you think your war is just".

 

[Earnie Shavers]

HIPHOP clearly stated he believes "war is never justified". Bono does not share that belief.

War IS never justified. It's the reaction to it that can be. That's what I was trying to say. The Allies didn't start WWII. The US didn't start the first Gulf War. Those who started those wars had ZERO justification for doing so.

 

[STING2]

War IS never justified. It's the reaction to it that can be. That's what I was trying to say. The Allies didn't start WWII. The US didn't start the first Gulf War. Those who started those wars had ZERO justification for doing so.

Well then I guess it depends on how one defines who starts a war. Every war that the United States has been Militarily involved in, in my view, has been justified.

 

[hiphop]

Well then I guess it depends on how one defines who starts a war. Every war that the United States has been Militarily involved in, in my view, has been justified.

So you don´t believe in the ten commandments.

Apparently you also think that U.S. Contras in Nicaragua were justified, supporting the Somoza dicatatorship.

 

[For Honor]

That´s true. However, I guess you and Abraham, or God for that matter, will have to agree to disagree on that one. The 6th commandment says thou shalt not kill. I never heard an added "except if you think your war is just".

I love that ideal - thou shall not kill......



I wish that people actually followed it.

I guess some things have been done to dehumanize o ther groups.... but........

So many things make me thing about "the crusades" Holy War?

God most have crapped his proverbeil pants - I hope that wasn't the way he wanted things to go

 

[A_Wanderer]

Well then I guess it depends on how one defines who starts a war. Every war that the United States has been Militarily involved in, in my view, has been justified.

I think the more telling illustration of justifying war is what happens when nobody bothers getting involved ~ is there passive complicity? inaction to enable genocide ~ thinking along the lines of Rwanda or the USA's position following the Gulf War towards the Shiite uprising a far more worthy example of blood for oil (not from Saddam but regional stablity P.O.V.) conducted from a realist realpolitik point of view.

Better to let hundreds of thousands be murdered than lift an "unjust: finger, we can all rejoice in the peace of the grave that that affords and the long term blowback.

 

[anitram]

Pardon me for being dense, but who gives a flying fuck about what Bono thinks? No, honestly, I mean no disrespect, but he's not my Jesus that I will blindly follow and agree with like some kind of sheep.

 

[cell]

Pardon me for being dense, but who gives a flying fuck about what Bono thinks? No, honestly, I mean no disrespect, but he's not my Jesus that I will blindly follow and agree with like some kind of sheep.

 

[nbcrusader]

Is war every justified?

To whom?

 

[joyfulgirl]

Is war every justified? We call them Defence Departments for a reason. It kind of says it all. If it's genuinely defensive, be it defending yourself or sticking up for someone who can't defend themselves, it's just. Starting the offensive war is never just, and it's precisely that which makes the defensive war just. So... we come to the grey area in the middle where no doubt this thread is headed anyway... To look at recent examples, IN MY OPINION - Gulf War 1? Just. Kosovo? Just. Afghanistan? Just. Iraq II? Grey.

In general I think I can go along with this.

 

[Se7en]

So you don´t believe in the ten commandments.

Apparently you also think that U.S. Contras in Nicaragua were justified, supporting the Somoza dicatatorship.

two things here hiphop:

1. god and the israelites didn't believe in the ten commandments either. there are stories all over the old testament about god ordering his nation to literally destroy, i.e. kill, every living thing so that they may inherit the "promised land."

2. was the u.s. militarily involved in nicaragua, as in, did we have troops on the ground? honest question. i *think* that is where sting is trying to make some sort of distintion with u.s. action. asking about the spanish american war would be interesting though... the uss maine mysteriously blows up in a cuban harbor, no evidence is ever found proving the cause, the u.s. declares war on spain anyway and submits cuba to decades of u.s. interference and puppet dicatators. not to mention the bloody rebellion of the filipinos that resulted.

 

[hiphop]

two things here hiphop:

1. god and the israelites didn't believe in the ten commandments either. there are stories all over the old testament about god ordering his nation to literally destroy, i.e. kill, every living thing so that they may inherit the "promised land."

2. was the u.s. militarily involved in nicaragua, as in, did we have troops on the ground? honest question. i *think* that is where sting is trying to make some sort of distintion with u.s. action. asking about the spanish american war would be interesting though... the uss maine mysteriously blows up in a cuban harbor, no evidence is ever found proving the cause, the u.s. declares war on spain anyway and submits cuba to decades of u.s. interference and puppet dicatators. not to mention the bloody rebellion of the filipinos that resulted.

1. fine, the broad point I tried to make is that lots of us are going to church on Sunday and still feel that, generally, some wars are justified. There is no justification for all the pain that is caused by war.

You can go on and on and on about "realpolitik" like A_Wanderer or what would have happened if the U.S. wouldnt have bombed former Yugoslavia. You can make countless statistics on that. This is why I said, war may be inevitable - but war is never justified. Who are you (anyone) to justify 10,000 homeless people, crippled children, women who lose their husband, soldiers hanging themselves because they can´t take the pain no more? You can´t justify a war and ignore this. You can only justify a war if you also think the weapon sales are a just thing, because one doesn´t work without the other.

And back to the point, if you are Christian, you still think that Jesus would nod his head and say, yeah yeah, some of the wars are justified? No way. The only exception the Bible makes, is the uprising of civil society against and, if necessary, the killing of tyrants.

2. Same for the Kosovo example then, did the US declare war? Not to my knowledge, and they also didn´t have troops on the ground.

The distinction whether it is "officially" a war or not, well.. you know, the Somoza troops in Nicaragua couldn´t have survived a month without the constant support of the Contras, so the civil war there would have been over sooner. Is supporting one side of a civil war (that is known for its cruelities) justifiable? Even if we do make the distinction you mentioned, STING2 thinks that the long, long war in Vietnam was justified.

 

[hiphop]

Plus, I want to make another point..

Is violence ever justifiable? I guess most, if not all of us here on Interference think that physical violence in private households, which is mainly against women, is not justified. I go as far as saying it is never justified.

You maybe think the same, but I can tell you the thousands of men have and still do try to justify their violent actions.

You think, they are not right. Violence is not justifiable in a relationship. Also when the woman grabs a gun and shoots the guy, you ask yourself, is that justified? She acted in defense, and maybe she had every right, but still, she killed a man; can that be justified?

But still you justify the most cruel, most extreme violences of all: war. And why that? Because you think the cause is just and noble . You basically think so because the media and your government tell you. If they didn´t you´d neither acknowledge there is a problem.

But our governments tell us that it is just. And we believe them. And the soldiers jump into war, happy&proud, thinking they are defending "their" country.

Man, we must be brainwashed.

 

[babyman]

Wars cannot be justified......................................