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Old 10-27-2005, 02:24 AM   #16
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


Yeah, and so what? I´m not on his payroll or anything
No, but he is on your payroll when you think about it.
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Old 10-27-2005, 02:29 AM   #17
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Originally posted by STING2


HIPHOP clearly stated he believes "war is never justified". Bono does not share that belief.
That´s true. However, I guess you and Abraham, or God for that matter, will have to agree to disagree on that one. The 6th commandment says thou shalt not kill. I never heard an added "except if you think your war is just".
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Old 10-27-2005, 02:40 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2

HIPHOP clearly stated he believes "war is never justified". Bono does not share that belief.
War IS never justified. It's the reaction to it that can be. That's what I was trying to say. The Allies didn't start WWII. The US didn't start the first Gulf War. Those who started those wars had ZERO justification for doing so.
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Old 10-27-2005, 02:48 AM   #19
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Originally posted by Earnie Shavers


War IS never justified. It's the reaction to it that can be. That's what I was trying to say. The Allies didn't start WWII. The US didn't start the first Gulf War. Those who started those wars had ZERO justification for doing so.
Well then I guess it depends on how one defines who starts a war. Every war that the United States has been Militarily involved in, in my view, has been justified.
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Old 10-27-2005, 02:54 AM   #20
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Originally posted by STING2


Well then I guess it depends on how one defines who starts a war. Every war that the United States has been Militarily involved in, in my view, has been justified.
So you don´t believe in the ten commandments.

Apparently you also think that U.S. Contras in Nicaragua were justified, supporting the Somoza dicatatorship.
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Old 10-27-2005, 03:04 AM   #21
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


That´s true. However, I guess you and Abraham, or God for that matter, will have to agree to disagree on that one. The 6th commandment says thou shalt not kill. I never heard an added "except if you think your war is just".
I love that ideal - thou shall not kill......



I wish that people actually followed it.

I guess some things have been done to dehumanize o ther groups.... but........

So many things make me thing about "the crusades" Holy War?

God most have crapped his proverbeil pants - I hope that wasn't the way he wanted things to go
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Old 10-27-2005, 10:17 AM   #22
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Originally posted by STING2
Well then I guess it depends on how one defines who starts a war. Every war that the United States has been Militarily involved in, in my view, has been justified.
I think the more telling illustration of justifying war is what happens when nobody bothers getting involved ~ is there passive complicity? inaction to enable genocide ~ thinking along the lines of Rwanda or the USA's position following the Gulf War towards the Shiite uprising a far more worthy example of blood for oil (not from Saddam but regional stablity P.O.V.) conducted from a realist realpolitik point of view.

Better to let hundreds of thousands be murdered than lift an "unjust: finger, we can all rejoice in the peace of the grave that that affords and the long term blowback.
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Old 10-27-2005, 10:25 AM   #23
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Pardon me for being dense, but who gives a flying fuck about what Bono thinks? No, honestly, I mean no disrespect, but he's not my Jesus that I will blindly follow and agree with like some kind of sheep.
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Old 10-27-2005, 11:04 AM   #24
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Originally posted by anitram
Pardon me for being dense, but who gives a flying fuck about what Bono thinks? No, honestly, I mean no disrespect, but he's not my Jesus that I will blindly follow and agree with like some kind of sheep.


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Old 10-27-2005, 11:22 AM   #25
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Is war every justified?
To whom?
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Old 10-27-2005, 11:23 AM   #26
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Originally posted by Earnie Shavers
Is war every justified? We call them Defence Departments for a reason. It kind of says it all. If it's genuinely defensive, be it defending yourself or sticking up for someone who can't defend themselves, it's just. Starting the offensive war is never just, and it's precisely that which makes the defensive war just. So... we come to the grey area in the middle where no doubt this thread is headed anyway... To look at recent examples, IN MY OPINION - Gulf War 1? Just. Kosovo? Just. Afghanistan? Just. Iraq II? Grey.
In general I think I can go along with this.
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Old 10-27-2005, 12:30 PM   #27
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars

So you don´t believe in the ten commandments.

Apparently you also think that U.S. Contras in Nicaragua were justified, supporting the Somoza dicatatorship.
two things here hiphop:

1. god and the israelites didn't believe in the ten commandments either. there are stories all over the old testament about god ordering his nation to literally destroy, i.e. kill, every living thing so that they may inherit the "promised land."

2. was the u.s. militarily involved in nicaragua, as in, did we have troops on the ground? honest question. i *think* that is where sting is trying to make some sort of distintion with u.s. action. asking about the spanish american war would be interesting though... the uss maine mysteriously blows up in a cuban harbor, no evidence is ever found proving the cause, the u.s. declares war on spain anyway and submits cuba to decades of u.s. interference and puppet dicatators. not to mention the bloody rebellion of the filipinos that resulted.
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Old 10-27-2005, 01:22 PM   #28
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Originally posted by Se7en


two things here hiphop:

1. god and the israelites didn't believe in the ten commandments either. there are stories all over the old testament about god ordering his nation to literally destroy, i.e. kill, every living thing so that they may inherit the "promised land."

2. was the u.s. militarily involved in nicaragua, as in, did we have troops on the ground? honest question. i *think* that is where sting is trying to make some sort of distintion with u.s. action. asking about the spanish american war would be interesting though... the uss maine mysteriously blows up in a cuban harbor, no evidence is ever found proving the cause, the u.s. declares war on spain anyway and submits cuba to decades of u.s. interference and puppet dicatators. not to mention the bloody rebellion of the filipinos that resulted.
1. fine, the broad point I tried to make is that lots of us are going to church on Sunday and still feel that, generally, some wars are justified. There is no justification for all the pain that is caused by war.

You can go on and on and on about "realpolitik" like A_Wanderer or what would have happened if the U.S. wouldnt have bombed former Yugoslavia. You can make countless statistics on that. This is why I said, war may be inevitable - but war is never justified. Who are you (anyone) to justify 10,000 homeless people, crippled children, women who lose their husband, soldiers hanging themselves because they can´t take the pain no more? You can´t justify a war and ignore this. You can only justify a war if you also think the weapon sales are a just thing, because one doesn´t work without the other.

And back to the point, if you are Christian, you still think that Jesus would nod his head and say, yeah yeah, some of the wars are justified? No way. The only exception the Bible makes, is the uprising of civil society against and, if necessary, the killing of tyrants.

2. Same for the Kosovo example then, did the US declare war? Not to my knowledge, and they also didn´t have troops on the ground.

The distinction whether it is "officially" a war or not, well.. you know, the Somoza troops in Nicaragua couldn´t have survived a month without the constant support of the Contras, so the civil war there would have been over sooner. Is supporting one side of a civil war (that is known for its cruelities) justifiable? Even if we do make the distinction you mentioned, STING2 thinks that the long, long war in Vietnam was justified.
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Old 10-27-2005, 01:35 PM   #29
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Plus, I want to make another point..

Is violence ever justifiable? I guess most, if not all of us here on Interference think that physical violence in private households, which is mainly against women, is not justified. I go as far as saying it is never justified.

You maybe think the same, but I can tell you the thousands of men have and still do try to justify their violent actions.

You think, they are not right. Violence is not justifiable in a relationship. Also when the woman grabs a gun and shoots the guy, you ask yourself, is that justified? She acted in defense, and maybe she had every right, but still, she killed a man; can that be justified?

But still you justify the most cruel, most extreme violences of all: war. And why that? Because you think the cause is just and noble . You basically think so because the media and your government tell you. If they didn´t you´d neither acknowledge there is a problem.

But our governments tell us that it is just. And we believe them. And the soldiers jump into war, happy&proud, thinking they are defending "their" country.

Man, we must be brainwashed.
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Old 10-27-2005, 02:02 PM   #30
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Wars cannot be justified......................................
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