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Old 04-06-2003, 08:30 AM   #46
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Originally posted by brettig

You could easily use that as the basis for thinking that whatever path you choose you're fulfilling God's plan, which is a bloody dangerous notion, one taken to heart by any number of sickos in the past!

Personally I think God does know what we're going to do. That doesn't mean he agrees with what we do, and it doesn't mean we don't get every chance to make our own choice...we certainly don't know what we're going to do!
I agree with this. It is a dangerous notion. I am talking more big picture than little picture I think. I can give you an example of my train of thought.

Roman Empire. Without it, how would Christianity have spread? Would it have spread as fast? Would it have become a dominant religion? Would it have survived the MIddle Ages?

The Roman Empire as it grew, did not stand for anything close to Christianity. There were many many, evil people who ran the empire. Their beliefs were very different from those of our Judeo-Christian heritage. Yet, something that in my mind, seems so diametrically opposite of what Christians believe, turned out to be a major instrument for the spread of the word.

Is it possible that big picture, individually, our free will is not as significant on the plan as we would like to believe? I am now officially rambling and typing ideas that pop into my head. I am not claiming any truth. I am asking and seeking.

Originally posted by brettig

The examples of war are in the Old Testament, yes? From the same God who struck people down without a second thought. Your argument would hold considerably more water if there wasn't a New Testament.
I do not believe that the New Testament wipes out the old. Where in the New Testament is there a SPECIFIC reference saying that war is forbidden? We have had this debate in here recently, and I know 80's U2 put up a pretty good counter argument to the New Testament argument.

Peace everyone.


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Old 04-06-2003, 09:00 AM   #47
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No specific reference, but Peter and Jesus in the Garden has always been a resonant passage for me...of course that will take us back into the whole 'God's will' tangent won't it

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Old 04-06-2003, 09:02 AM   #48
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Originally posted by sulawesigirl4
But enough on the sovereignty issue...we could easily make this a spin-off theology thread in Goal is Soul.
I think there are a number of theological issues being addressed in this thread - each worthy of its own discussion.

The sovereignty of God, the problem of evil, predestination, freewill, establishment of worldly authorities.....

This is why I love this place!

Peace to all.
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Old 04-06-2003, 10:45 AM   #49
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Originally posted by Dreadsox

Maybe I am a Christian fatalist? I think your question is boarderline insulting, and I wish I could believe in my heart you were interested in a serious discussion with me. That said I will answer your question with that hope.

I happen to believe that even though we have free will, God is not sitting there trying to guess what we will do. If you believe that God is omnipotent, then God already knows what you and I are going to chose to do.

I never said that I did not recognize free will. Please do not put words into my mouth. You put a question mark at the end of that statement and it does not seem like a question. It feels like you are putting words into my mouth.

Yes, God is good, yet there are plenty of examples of war in the bible. I am not going to derail the thread.
No, I didn't mean to insult you or anything, Dreadsox. Just asking serious questions. It's a serious topic and very interesting. Whenever one takes a proper thinking on things like that they inevitably come to some insuperable paradoxes. Insuperable for the human mind I mean. Kant used to call those paradoxes antinomies, you remeber.
For instance the well-known paradox "proving" that God is not omnipotent.

Can God make a stone that he will not be able to lift?

If he can, he is not omnipotent because he cannot lift it.
If he cannot make such a stone, he is not omnipotent because he cannot make it.

Of course, we have a negative statement in the question itself so it contradicts formal logic...among other things. But interesting...

If you recognise free will, I see no problems in your case.
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Old 04-06-2003, 11:40 AM   #50
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Can God make a stone that he will not be able to lift?
As we know from physics this question isn't logical if you think in big scale you can "lift" stones on earth, but you can't lift a planet because it isn't lying on a ground... my point is, if we'd have enough wisdom we would understand that the problem we have with a allmighty god is our small knowldege and our weak logic.

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Old 04-06-2003, 02:54 PM   #51
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I would not be the least bit surprised to find it is true, and language such as that is used, regularly.
Scary isn't it?
Someone asked here, "is this the apocalypse?". I think that may be part of another prayer prayer, THE God will come and destroy all the wicked people ( even if they are children or have no legs, they still have great potential for evil) and cleanse the earth. It will be quite pleasant when just the good people are left, won't it? and George W and Ronald McDonald , I can hardly wait.

I have to say something light....otherwise I'd spend all day

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