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Old 04-05-2003, 11:43 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


This is my point. Don't speak about this war or the outcome as being of God. This war was his mistake, uh I mean decision, don't speak as if God has anything to do with it.
God has everything to do with it. If the events of history, past, present, and future, were not part of the plan, would they happen?

Do not get me wrong, I am not saying God is taking sides in the war or anything like that, however everything that happens, has to happen as part of GOd's plan, No? Yes?

I am so confused.
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Old 04-05-2003, 03:53 PM   #32
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God has everything to do with it. If the events of history, past, present, and future, were not part of the plan, would they happen?
I've never fully subscribed to the notion. We are not puppets in some huge play put on by God. God gave man the ability to decide his or her actions. So no. The holacaust was not of God, rape is not of God, evil dictators and politicians are not of God. They aren't of God, so how can they be part of God's plan? God can't intervene (sp?) everytime something bad is about to happen or then we would be part of a play. Oh this is another thread for another day. I see where you're coming from though...
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Old 04-05-2003, 04:11 PM   #33
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Oh, these topics are always interesting. Is rape part of God, is war? Is darkness occupying God's space? That space was put there by God, and that space can be occupied by light. I suppose darkness is nothing more than the negation of light. Therefore, negativity can be viewed as a negation of positivity. Make of that what you will...
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Old 04-05-2003, 04:28 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


God has everything to do with it. If the events of history, past, present, and future, were not part of the plan, would they happen?

Do not get me wrong, I am not saying God is taking sides in the war or anything like that, however everything that happens, has to happen as part of GOd's plan, No? Yes?

I am so confused.
Dreadsox, are you a Christian or a fatalist?

You don't recognise the free will given to the people by God?

How about theodicy?
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Old 04-05-2003, 04:57 PM   #35
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Spirituality and warfare exclude each other. But why am I wasting my time to comment on stupidity like that.

You´re puttin too much weight into words and there´s too much hate in this world...
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Old 04-05-2003, 07:17 PM   #36
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Originally posted by ALEXRUS


Dreadsox, are you a Christian or a fatalist?

You don't recognise the free will given to the people by God?

How about theodicy?
Maybe I am a Christian fatalist? I think your question is boarderline insulting, and I wish I could believe in my heart you were interested in a serious discussion with me. That said I will answer your question with that hope.

I happen to believe that even though we have free will, God is not sitting there trying to guess what we will do. If you believe that God is omnipotent, then God already knows what you and I are going to chose to do.

I never said that I did not recognize free will. Please do not put words into my mouth. You put a question mark at the end of that statement and it does not seem like a question. It feels like you are putting words into my mouth.

Yes, God is good, yet there are plenty of examples of war in the bible. I am not going to derail the thread.
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Old 04-05-2003, 07:29 PM   #37
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


I've never fully subscribed to the notion. We are not puppets in some huge play put on by God. God gave man the ability to decide his or her actions. So no. The holacaust was not of God, rape is not of God, evil dictators and politicians are not of God. They aren't of God, so how can they be part of God's plan? God can't intervene (sp?) everytime something bad is about to happen or then we would be part of a play. Oh this is another thread for another day. I see where you're coming from though...
I appreciate you responding respectfully to my post. What you typed above is more in line with my beliefs, however, I do find it hard to believe that everything that happens does not somehow, fit into the will of God in some way. I would like a thread on this too.

That said, I was never asked to specifically pray in any way for anyone in my entire time in the service. I did a lot of praying, but was never told what or who to pray for.

What troubles me, is that 40 years ago, the country was worried that Kennedy would be subservient to the Pope and press a Catholic Agenda on the US. Kennedy did not.

I wish I could say I felt the same about this President. The President should not be pushing religion, nor allowing a religion, to dominate his job as president.

Peace
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Old 04-05-2003, 10:02 PM   #38
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Dreadsox, I just wanted to take a time out to say how much I appreciate your way of discussion. Though you and I may not always agree--and sometimes we may of course--I respect how you put your views across. As long as we continue to use a balanced approach, we shall be able to maintain a discussion rather than a head-butting session that these things sometimes turn into! That is, we (the general "we" - not necessarily "you and I") will avoid falling into a simple battle of positions, which never really results in anything but an ego exercise. It's refreshing to see.
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Old 04-05-2003, 10:15 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox

I happen to believe that even though we have free will, God is not sitting there trying to guess what we will do. If you believe that God is omnipotent, then God already knows what you and I are going to chose to do.
You could easily use that as the basis for thinking that whatever path you choose you're fulfilling God's plan, which is a bloody dangerous notion, one taken to heart by any number of sickos in the past!

Personally I think God does know what we're going to do. That doesn't mean he agrees with what we do, and it doesn't mean we don't get every chance to make our own choice...we certainly don't know what we're going to do!

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox

Yes, God is good, yet there are plenty of examples of war in the bible. I am not going to derail the thread.
The examples of war are in the Old Testament, yes? From the same God who struck people down without a second thought. Your argument would hold considerably more water if there wasn't a New Testament.
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Old 04-05-2003, 11:39 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by ALEXRUS


Dreadsox, are you a Christian or a fatalist?

You don't recognise the free will given to the people by God?

How about theodicy?
What si theodicY?
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Old 04-05-2003, 11:41 PM   #41
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars
But why am I wasting my time to comment on stupidity like that.

You´re puttin too much weight into words and there´s too much hate in this world...
Did I miss something? I am confused...what stupidity are you talking about?
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Old 04-06-2003, 08:06 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox

Yes, God is good, yet there are plenty of examples of war in the bible. I am not going to derail the thread.
even in the old testament war was mainly because of the humans who didn't listen to gods words at the right time..
..in the bilbe there's also a stroy about killing a innocent man (Jesus) i don't think that because of that we should kill people without a reason
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Old 04-06-2003, 08:47 AM   #43
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I agree with brettig. Making God the author of all that happens in history also makes him responsible for evil and that is something that I cannot abide by. I would have to say that I believe in God having absolute power but that he loves creation so much that he is willing to take the risk of allowing us to make our own free choices, in order for actual love to exist between him and us. I've been studying this topic for some time, so it's not a theology I'm making up or anything. It's what I think that a faithful exegisis of Scripture could lead one to believe. But enough on the sovereignty issue...we could easily make this a spin-off theology thread in Goal is Soul.
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Old 04-06-2003, 09:03 AM   #44
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Originally posted by Michael Griffiths
As long as we continue to use a balanced approach, we shall be able to maintain a discussion rather than a head-butting session that these things sometimes turn into! That is, we (the general "we" - not necessarily "you and I") will avoid falling into a simple battle of positions, which never really results in anything but an ego exercise. It's refreshing to see.

I have done the ego excercise thing here too. I am trying. Thanks for the nice words.

Peace
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Old 04-06-2003, 09:11 AM   #45
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I would have to say that I believe in God having absolute power but that he loves creation so much that he is willing to take the risk of allowing us to make our own free choices, in order for actual love to exist between him and us.
It is a great debate. It almost falls along the lines of the debate that I had in college with someone about Judas. Did he actually have Free Will. It also falls into the why do bad things happen to good people.

I believe this too:

"I would have to say that I believe in God having absolute power but that he loves creation so much that he is willing to take the risk of allowing us to make our own free choices, in order for actual love to exist between him and us."

I have a very good friend from Iran who does not believe that God has feelings of love or hate. That we, as part of the creation, relate to God through our feelings and emotions. My friend always felt that we "Christians" did not understand the nature of God outside of the emotions that we understood. He was very convinced that God, was focused only on the plan for the world, and was not guided by the feelings and emotions that we as humans use to relate to God. We had some very good discussions on this topic.
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