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Old 09-24-2006, 03:42 PM   #76
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest



I don't want to hear that my scenario would never happen (although we know from an ABC investigative reporter that waterboarding has worked when nothing else did).

You create an impossible scenario and then tell people not to tell you it would never happen? Come on!

How would one know with absolution this person knows of a plan and not have a clue as to what it is?
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Old 09-24-2006, 04:59 PM   #77
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


You create an impossible scenario and then tell people not to tell you it would never happen? Come on!

How would one know with absolution this person knows of a plan and not have a clue as to what it is?
It's not an impossible situation. Did you see what the ABC Inestigative Reporter said? He said that in "several" instances, the terrorists gave up good, accurate information under the duress of waterboarding that they hadn't given up undre the duress of any other coercive method.

Even if you don't buy what Ross said, the question is not about the statistical possibility of the scenario happening. It hasn't been about that for me this entire time.

So, let's forget all the scenario.s I'll just ask a simple question for you or anyone else who would care to answer:

Would you be willing to psychologically and physically injure a person if that's what it took to stop him from murdering an innocent person?
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Old 09-24-2006, 05:05 PM   #78
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


This doesn't make sense.

So if you are working for the government your morals go out the window? What's to keep us from making other exemptions?
It does make sense. When Christ was talking to people about one on one relationships, those things don't necessarily apply to the way the government should respond.

For instance, Christ said to treat others as you would have them treat you.

Does that apply to the government and its protection of the people? When 9/11 happened, would Christ have wanted the US not to fight back and protect itself against the Taliban, simply because we wouldn't them to attack ourselves?
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Old 09-24-2006, 05:15 PM   #79
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


Would you be willing to psychologically and physically injure a person if that's what it took to stop him from murdering an innocent person?
Well the question is still faulty for a couple of reasons. One, simply locking him up would prevent him from murdering an innocent person there would be no need for torture. But let's say you meant it would stop a plan to be carried out by another. Well the answer would be yes obviously, but you're functioning under the false premise of a guarantee.
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Old 09-24-2006, 05:29 PM   #80
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


It does make sense. When Christ was talking to people about one on one relationships, those things don't necessarily apply to the way the government should respond.

For instance, Christ said to treat others as you would have them treat you.

Does that apply to the government and its protection of the people? When 9/11 happened, would Christ have wanted the US not to fight back and protect itself against the Taliban, simply because we wouldn't them to attack ourselves?
Big difference in fulfilling justice and torture.

How would we ask others not to torture if we ourselves are doing so? So yes the moral issues still exist. How could one say they are following the teachings of Christ and then torture for a living? He's still an individual that has to answer to God someday...
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Old 09-24-2006, 07:02 PM   #81
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Well the question is still faulty for a couple of reasons. One, simply locking him up would prevent him from murdering an innocent person there would be no need for torture.
Well, I meant "if the person knew the plan", so I should have said that.

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

But let's say you meant it would stop a plan to be carried out by another. Well the answer would be yes obviously, but you're functioning under the false premise of a guarantee.
First, I commend you for being willing to do what would be necessary. I do think that there are those would not be willing to do that to a murder planner, even if it would stop a murder.

Secondly, I do think that there are situations in which factors can let the agents know that the terrorist they have captured has information, or at least be almost 100% sure. These factors include surveillance and the importance of the terrorist captured. For an example of the importance factor, look at the case of that guy who, under waterboarding duress, gave them the info that stopped the plan against the towers in Los Angeles. He was big wig - very important in the organization; they knew he had to know plans.
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Old 10-26-2006, 04:44 PM   #82
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