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Old 09-21-2006, 08:16 AM   #31
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


What do the two have to do with each other?

Tell me najeena, what would you do? If you knew someone was involved in a plan to murder innocents, would you not do whatever was necessary to thwart the plan?
[/QUOTE

In both cases, Bush doesn't know what it feels like, never will. I heard someone on the radio say that he blew up small animals for fun when he was a kid. True? I don't doubt it. He seems to totally lack the compassion that he bragged about in the 2000 election. He cares about people who will either vote for him or give him money. The rest of us are just taking up space.

What about all of the Iraqi innocents that have been blown up? Why are we better than them? We excoriated Saddam for torture, now we do than same thing. It's sick.
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Old 09-21-2006, 08:56 AM   #32
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
No, we are not stooping to their level. We aren't car-bombing innocents and chopping off reporter's heads, are we?

Yes, there have been a few incidents in which our servicemen/women have done horirble things. But they acted on their own; it is not US policy to do these things.

It is terrorist "policy" to kill innocents. That's what their work is all about.
Let me start by looking to comon ground. You are right on target here and I do find it very frustrating when people make hyperbolic statements about how we have "stooped to their level." We're a looong way from having stooped to the level of the terrorists, and you've expressed that pretty succinctly.

And now to the points of disagreement. . .

I don't think we should use torture because it is one of the many ways in which we maintain the moral high ground in this struggle. It's one of the ways in which we keep from "stooping to the level of the terrorists."

Secondly this scenario is problematic:

Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


What I'm telling you is that if I know that someone is planning on murdering someone else, I would do what I had to do to that person to stop the plan.."
It's really a hypothetical that is actually highly unlikely. Yet it's flung about as if it happens every day, as if the only reason we haven't experienced a hundred 9/11's is because of the heroic and vigilant torturing of our enemies.

But here's the thing how often do we know FOR SURE that a suspect is both a bonafide terrorist and CERTAINLY knows information that will CERTAINLY lead to mass murder. If we know all this with so much certainty, then we probably already know enough details of what is CERTAINLY to happen that torture becomes unnecessary. We're also assuming that we will somehow magically know whether the person is giving good information thus knowing whether to continue torturing till we get the truth or to stop torturing knowing with certainty that we have the truth.

Wouldn't we have to tell the suspect something along the lines of, "if this information turns out to be false we're going to come back and torture you even worse/kill you so don't even think about making stuff up?" And of course if the suspect doesn't really know the information we need (which in real life is quite possible) then they will certainly make something up to get it to stop, and our intelligence officials will go waste valuable time chasing bad information.

Torture is great for getting people to recant their beliefs and whatnot. It's had a long and gloried history of doing that. As far as getting useful information, I'm not sure how affective it is.

Furthermore, don't you think if torture was indeed yielding all kinds of valuable info the current administration would play it more. Wouldn't they be saying things like: "We are pleased to report that Suspect X, under duress, confessed to Plot ABC. FBI agents using information gleaned from Suspect X subsequently discovered explosives, etc etc set to destroy U.S. Landmark
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Old 09-21-2006, 09:01 AM   #33
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Originally posted by Irvine511
and what if he gave you incorrect information just to make you stop?
That's actually been known to happen, which is why we used to get those random terror alerts a couple years back.

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Old 09-21-2006, 09:22 AM   #34
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


No one's saying that. But you and 80's are assuming first of all you know for sure this person is guilty and secondly that torture will get you the correct answer.
I know no one is saying that, but thats the only logical thing I see happening.
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Old 09-21-2006, 09:31 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem


I most certainly don't need to question myself. I know me, I know I am a person who could never lower myself to such levels as one who would participate in the torture and suffering of anyone. The fact that you would, for whatever reason, is frankly what makes them such repulsive human beings. You're capable of better than that. They probably are not. Yet, you choose that.

And you know, I'm surprised at you even asking if it is me caring more for the murderers than their potential victims. I do not believe you are that stupid, so why you actually asked it is beyond me.

Your lack of compassion is interesting. However, that is a personal aspect, and one which is your battle and not fit for here.
Angela, you'll notice that this post was "edited". That's because I originally wrote something back to you that was every bit as judgmental and condemning toward you that you have been to me. But then I thought better about that anbd decided to post this instead.

You have been extremely rude, judgmental and condemning toward me, for no reason other than the fact that I said I would "waterboard" someone who was planning a murder if it would stop the murder. I did not say that I would enjoy such a thing or that I would do it for any other reason. My goal would be to save innocent lives. And if I have to injure a blood thirsty murderer to do that, so be it.

If you do not agree with me, there is a way to respond rather than acting that way toward me. Ask Najeena how to respond properly; Najeen hasn't been making character judgments about me. Ask Meloon and Maycocksean; they have behaved properly, also.

Heck, I disagree with Irvine511 all the time, but he doesn't judge my character.
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Old 09-21-2006, 09:32 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Diemen


Um, yes you did:



Now granted, you qualified it a little, but the action itself can't be inhumane in one instance and not in another (regardless of who you're doing it to and why).
Diemen, you got me. I didn't remember saying that; I was thinking of the post in which I did admit that it's torture.
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Old 09-21-2006, 09:49 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean


Let me start by looking to comon ground. You are right on target here and I do find it very frustrating when people make hyperbolic statements about how we have "stooped to their level." We're a looong way from having stooped to the level of the terrorists, and you've expressed that pretty succinctly.


Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean
It's really a hypothetical that is actually highly unlikely.
I have a question for you, and I do not mean this in a "jerky" way. How do you know that it's highly unlikely? Do you or have you ever worked in any field that would give you this kind of experience? Have you delat with "spy" work?

Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean
Yet it's flung about as if it happens every day, as if the only reason we haven't experienced a hundred 9/11's is because of the heroic and vigilant torturing of our enemies
I didn't say it happens every day.

What I did say is that as a last resort I would use it on a murderer to stop a murder.

Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean
But here's the thing how often do we know FOR SURE that a suspect is both a bonafide terrorist and CERTAINLY knows information that will CERTAINLY lead to mass murder. If we know all this with so much certainty, then we probably already know enough details of what is CERTAINLY to happen that torture becomes unnecessary.
Again, do you or have you ever worked in any field that would give you this kind of experience? Have you dealt with "spy" work?


Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean
We're also assuming that we will somehow magically know whether the person is giving good information thus knowing whether to continue torturing till we get the truth or to stop torturing knowing with certainty that we have the truth.

Wouldn't we have to tell the suspect something along the lines of, "if this information turns out to be false we're going to come back and torture you even worse/kill you so don't even think about making stuff up?" And of course if the suspect doesn't really know the information we need (which in real life is quite possible) then they will certainly make something up to get it to stop, and our intelligence officials will go waste valuable time chasing bad information..
I'm not assuming I'd "magically know" anything. We'd act on his info, and if nothing came of it, and yet we knew something was being planned, we'd come back and do it some more until either (a) we tharted the plan or (b) the plan was carried out, at which point we'd release him to the appropriate justice system.

Yes, they might chase down bad information, but at least they're trying to do something.




Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean
Torture is great for getting people to recant their beliefs and whatnot. It's had a long and gloried history of doing that. As far as getting useful information, I'm not sure how affective it is.
I'm not sure how affective it is, either, to be frank. But I'm not suggessting w einstitute it as "policy". I'm saying that if it were absolutely necessray to prevent murders of innocents, it should be done.

Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean
Furthermore, don't you think if torture was indeed yielding all kinds of valuable info the current administration would play it more. Wouldn't they be saying things like: "We are pleased to report that Suspect X, under duress, confessed to Plot ABC. FBI agents using information gleaned from Suspect X subsequently discovered explosives, etc etc set to destroy U.S. Landmark
In this political climate, I really don't think so.

In summary, you make some good points, but I still believe that if doing that to someone involved in the planning of a murder will thwart the murder, it should to be done.
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Old 09-21-2006, 09:56 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by najeena
I heard someone on the radio say that he blew up small animals for fun when he was a kid. True? I don't doubt it.
I could get on the radio and say that Bill Clinton used to drown puppy dogs in quicksand when he was a kid. Doesn't make it true, especially since there is nothing to support my outrageous claim.

Quote:
Originally posted by najeena

What about all of the Iraqi innocents that have been blown up? Why are we better than them? We excoriated Saddam for torture, now we do than same thing. It's sick.
we don't blow up innocents on purpose. It might happen accidentally sometimes, but it's not our purpose. The terrorists plan these types of things.

We excoriated Saddam for torturing innocents.
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Old 09-21-2006, 10:09 AM   #39
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Originally posted by partygirlvox


Just because you are doing it to person who is planning to murder people, doesn't make it any less inhumane.
There are other ways to make people suffer and to punish them than torture.
But partygirlvox, I wouldn't be doing it to "punish" them. I would be doing it to save their intended victims' lives. Punishing them is a job for the appropriate court system.
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Old 09-21-2006, 10:23 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


Angela, you'll notice that this post was "edited". That's because I originally wrote something back to you that was every bit as judgmental and condemning toward you that you have been to me. But then I thought better about that anbd decided to post this instead.

You have been extremely rude, judgmental and hateful toward me, for no reason other than the fact that I said I would "waterboard" someone who was planning a murder if it would stop the murder. I did not say that I would enjoy such a thing or that I would do it for any other reason. My goal would be to save innocent lives. And if I have to injure a blood thirsty murderer to do that, so be it.

If you do not agree with me, there is a way to do it rather than being so hateful toward me. Ask Najeena how to respond properly; Najeen hasn't been making character judgments about me. Ask Meloon and Maycocksean; they have behaved properly, also.

Heck, I disagree with Irvine511 all the time, but he doesn't judge my character.
I have always immensely enjoyed your posts, and still do. This and a few others in recent times have frustrated me beyond belief. I was going to respond to your other post and the points you raised but cannot recall them all accurately, so this will have to do. Plus my comp is running out of battery.

Let me clarify some things. I know you would take no pleasure in using this on someone, anyone. It's the fact that you would which bothers me greatly in anyone, but especially so in someone with Christian ethics. You called me righteous for not stopping to their level. Perhaps it is? I dont know. I know that I couldn't harm someone unless the adrenaline fuelled threat was there to me or my family. In calculated terms, I couldn't do it. I actually doubt you or many people actually could, but that is neither here nor there.
This whole to-ing and fro-ing of ours has left out one other possibility which I always assume and believe is the better option. I of course would not stand around idly while the lives of innocent people were at risk. I'm not that cold/stupid/indifferent/oblivious. There is permanent incarceration, obviously, and interrogation methods which might or might not work. They'd perhaps end up rather psychological, but I just cant see myself ending up taking the physical route.

On the personal level, I dont mean to come across as hateful. You're one of the few people on here who absolutely fascinate me. I see you as one massive contradiction, and that is frustrating to me. I dont get how you work. How you tick. That is no doubt resulting in my showing that. I apologise. I do vehemently disagree with so much of your views on this particular topic, and am really failing to see how you ended up here, given who you are and the kind of guy you are.
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Old 09-21-2006, 11:07 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem


I have always immensely enjoyed your posts, and still do. This and a few others in recent times have frustrated me beyond belief. You're one of the few people on here who absolutely fascinate me. I see you as one massive contradiction, and that is frustrating to me. I dont get how you work. How you tick. I do vehemently disagree with so much of your views on this particular topic, and am really failing to see how you ended up here, given who you are and the kind of guy you are.
Actually, there is no contradiction here with anything I've ever said. Maybe you're referring to the fact that I'm anti-death penalty. Please recall that my opposition to the death penalty has nothing to do with protecting the people who are actually guilty; I am opposed to the death penalty because of the possibility that innocent people would be killed. That's very much in line with what I have said here. Remember that I said "If I knew without a doubt" that the person was involved in a murder plan. If there was any doubt, I wouldn't do it. It is, as maycocksean said, a hypothetical situation, but nevertheless that is the context in which I stated it.


Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
I know that I couldn't harm someone unless the adrenaline fuelled threat was there to me or my family. In calculated terms, I couldn't do it. I actually doubt you or many people actually could, but that is neither here nor there.
Yes, I could. I hate the killing of innocents. If I captured a man who was involved in a plan to murder you, there is no doubt in my mind that if it was absolutely necessary, I would waterboard him to gain the information that would stop the murdering of you.


Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
There is permanent incarceration, obviously, and interrogation methods which might or might not work.
Those are all outside of the context of the circumstances in which I would do it; I stated that it would be a last resort - if nothing else (like the things you mentioned) worked.


Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
That is no doubt resulting in my showing that. I apologise.
Thank you for apologizing; I accept it. And I apologize for responding to you the way I did in the post I deleted. I wish you hadn't seen the original, because it was written in anger.
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Old 09-21-2006, 11:08 AM   #42
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Any reliable Intelligence Officer will tell you that the ticking time bomb theory is really a can of bullshit. The probability of capturing a active terrorist engaged in a current plot minutes before the bomb is to go off is strictly hollywood. It implies you know about the plot just not where. For both of these events to happen are a mindboggling miniscule percent. In effect it is impossible and therefore is a strawman argument.
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Old 09-21-2006, 11:30 AM   #43
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I know no one is saying that, but thats the only logical thing I see happening.
Then the logic is flawed.
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Old 09-21-2006, 11:42 AM   #44
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The logic is not flawed. We can either obtain information from out suspect through torture during times of war and get vital information to prevent an immenent attack or let him sit in a cell and let the attack happen.
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Old 09-21-2006, 12:10 PM   #45
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The logic is not flawed. We can either obtain information from out suspect through torture during times of war and get vital information to prevent an immenent attack or let him sit in a cell and let the attack happen.
Like I said though, you are assuming way too much, look at my original post.
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