is this torture?

[Irvine511]

while i don't think it's entirely apt to compare what's been going on in the GWOT by the CIA and the US military as torture equivalent to, say, the Viet Cong, the Inquisition, or Imperial Japan, there is no question that the Bush administration has consciously blurred the lines of what are and what aren't acceptable interrogation techniques that has lead to the death of some prisoners.

please read the below, and then tell me, is this acceptable? americans: do you want this done in your name?



[q]The CIA sources described a list of six "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques" instituted in mid-March 2002 and used, they said, on a dozen top al Qaeda targets incarcerated in isolation at secret locations on military bases in regions from Asia to Eastern Europe. According to the sources, only a handful of CIA interrogators are trained and authorized to use the techniques:

1. The Attention Grab: The interrogator forcefully grabs the shirt front of the prisoner and shakes him.

2. Attention Slap: An open-handed slap aimed at causing pain and triggering fear.

3. The Belly Slap: A hard open-handed slap to the stomach. The aim is to cause pain, but not internal injury. Doctors consulted advised against using a punch, which could cause lasting internal damage.

4. Long Time Standing: This technique is described as among the most effective. Prisoners are forced to stand, handcuffed and with their feet shackled to an eye bolt in the floor for more than 40 hours. Exhaustion and sleep deprivation are effective in yielding confessions.

5. The Cold Cell: The prisoner is left to stand naked in a cell kept near 50 degrees. Throughout the time in the cell the prisoner is doused with cold water.

6. Water Boarding: The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt.

According to the sources, CIA officers who subjected themselves to the water boarding technique lasted an average of 14 seconds before caving in. They said al Qaeda's toughest prisoner, Khalid Sheik Mohammed, won the admiration of interrogators when he was able to last between two and two-and-a-half minutes before begging to confess.

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Investigation/story?id=1322866&page=1

[/q]

 

[Sparkysgrrrl]

Just because you consulted doctors doesn't mean it's not torture.

Nice way of trying to clear ones conscience about it tho.

And sleep deprevation can have the same effects of being drugged, why bother with all the pesky waiting aroung? Might as well shoot them up with something and get to the same result quicker.
Stupid stupid logic.

 

[menelaos]

and this is just the top of the iceberg...

 

[yolland]

Rare and judicious use of the "Attention Grab," maybe. That one sounds like it works more by startling and disorienting the captive than by creating anticipation of pain or trauma. I would have to see it demonstrated to judge, though.

The rest, I would definitely not support. I am inclined to agree with Sparkysgrrrl--if you're going to deem these acceptable, then might as well try putting a pistol to their heads, etc., too. After all, that does no medical damage either...

 

[Abomb-baby]

How about decapitation as a form of torture? You people don't seem to get it do you? If any one of these save ONE american service mans life, I will support it. And don't give me the old, " there is no evidence BS either." The CIA will never tell you anything. The CIA gets results from these techniques and they are Way short of torture. How dare you even use torture in the same sentence!!! What a freakin joke. One day it will all become abundantly clear to you bleeding heart mamby pambys that we are fighting a war against an enemy who wants you DEAD!! No discussion, no give peace a chance. Their religious ideology says that you must be killed because you are an infidel. How do you fight that? I personally have attended Air Force resistance(survival School) training where most of these techniques were used on ME. I am not pschologically harmed nor was I physically hurt. Its NOT Torture. Ask the brave men who spent years in Hanoi about torture. Ask the jews who spent years in NAZi concentration camps about torture, but please quit using that word. Its not in the same league, field or ball park.

 

[Bluer White]

I also support these measures. Am I proud of it? No. Am I a realist? Yes.

 

[yolland]

Ask the brave men who spent years in Hanoi about torture. Ask the jews who spent years in NAZi concentration camps about torture...

My mother spent years in Auschwitz, and is in fact vehemently opposed to the techniques Irvine posted for (according to her) precisely that reason.

Do you think former torture victim John McCain is a coward?

from Newsweek, Nov. 21 2005

Some view more coercive interrogation tactics as something short of torture but worry that they might be subject to challenge under the "no cruel, inhumane or degrading" standard. Others, including me, believe that both the prohibition on torture and the cruel, inhumane and degrading standard must remain intact. When we relax that standard, it is nearly unavoidable that some objectionable practices will be allowed as something less than torture because they do not risk life and limb or do not cause very serious physical pain.

For instance, there has been considerable press attention to a tactic called "waterboarding," where a prisoner is restrained and blindfolded while an interrogator pours water on his face and into his mouth—causing the prisoner to believe he is being drowned. He isn't, of course; there is no intention to injure him physically. But if you gave people who have suffered abuse as prisoners a choice between a beating and a mock execution, many, including me, would choose a beating. The effects of most beatings heal. The memory of an execution will haunt someone for a very long time and damage his or her psyche in ways that may never heal. In my view, to make someone believe that you are killing him by drowning is no different than holding a pistol to his head and firing a blank. I believe that it is torture, very exquisite torture.

Finally, if you want a respectful consideration of your own views from other FYMers, then I suggest you drop the personal insults.

 

[Irvine511]

How about decapitation as a form of torture? You people don't seem to get it do you? If any one of these save ONE american service mans life, I will support it. And don't give me the old, " there is no evidence BS either." The CIA will never tell you anything. The CIA gets results from these techniques and they are Way short of torture. How dare you even use torture in the same sentence!!! What a freakin joke. One day it will all become abundantly clear to you bleeding heart mamby pambys that we are fighting a war against an enemy who wants you DEAD!! No discussion, no give peace a chance. Their religious ideology says that you must be killed because you are an infidel. How do you fight that? I personally have attended Air Force resistance(survival School) training where most of these techniques were used on ME. I am not pschologically harmed nor was I physically hurt. Its NOT Torture. Ask the brave men who spent years in Hanoi about torture. Ask the jews who spent years in NAZi concentration camps about torture, but please quit using that word. Its not in the same league, field or ball park.

i'm going to ignore your snide, insulting tone and try to respond to what you're actually trying to say.

do you think that the use of torture -- such as the ones described above, but there are other rumors going around the Muslim world and in the mainstream american media, ranging from smearing menstrul blood on the faces of prisoners to severe beatings to using lions (yes, lions -- or whatever you'd like to call it actually endangers the lives of American soldiers, especially if they should be captured? do you think this makes the torture of captured American service members much more likely? do you think stories like this enrage muslim youth and makes them more likely to strap bombs to themselves?

do you think that John McCain, who's a brave man who spent quite a few years in Hanoi, is wrong to be against these things? do you support the administration's threat to veto the McCain Amendment?

finally, what ideas and ideals do you support? if we are fighting this war to defend a way of life, do you see these techniques as combatible with the way of life we are defending? a way of life that champions individual dignity and the idea that all are equal in the eyes of a "creator" and deserving of the same protection by law?

i'd love to hear answers, and if you could cut out the insults, it would both make us feel better and make you look a little less stupid.

 

[XHendrix24]

1. Attention Grab: Nah.

2. Attention Slap: Probably not.

3. The Belly Slap: Eh...stretching it, but I think this could be deemed as acceptable.

4. Long Time Standing: Yes.

5. The Cold Cell: Definitely.

6. Water Boarding: We do this to people?

Oh, and I love John McCain. Great man.

 

[verte76]

I like what yolland said about his mother and Auschwitz. The reason I consider WWII to have been a just war was because this sort of thing had to be stopped. I don't support any of this because of what our troops are fighting. Saddam used torture and stuff, and I don't think it's right to use it. Period.

 

[menelaos]

Abomb and only that your are talking about Nazis and Jews shows the lack of memory you 've got...
Who armed this enemy..? The Russia or Europe..???
I think that -CIA- trained Osama and gave him the weapons to use them against the Russians...
I also think that your goverment has rescued many of the Bin Ladens right after 9/11...
We have a rhyme here wich goes like this...
Don't sow winds in order not to mow storms,... if you get me...

 

[VertigoGal]

The first 3, probably not acceptable. If this were truly limited to a dozen people and carried out only as far as described, in a very regulated environment...then it might be acceptable as a last resort. But these things get abused and I have a feeling we'd have people getting beaten to death. I have to wonder about the mental health of the interrogators. Being given the power to hit people like that can't be good for you.

Cold cell and long time standing seem pretty cruel. I'm not sure if they've proven to be effective and I know they're intended not to actually harm anyone long-term, but I'm very uncomfortable with this method. The last one is completely unacceptable. We've got to hold ourselves to a higher standard than that.

 

[nbcrusader]

Saddam used torture and stuff, and I don't think it's right to use it. Period.

How would you define torture?


With no clear objective definition, we can see a clear divergence in opinion regarding the methods described above. Hell, I've heard someone comment that forcing prisoners to listen to Eminem's Slim Shady album was "torture".

And if we are so quick to write these techniques off as torture (the topic du jour), we'd better stop and take a look at what happens in our own law enforcement facilities - I'm sure we'd find similar elements (not identical tactics) to question suspects that are not far off the scale described in the article.

 

[XHendrix24]

The first 3, probably not acceptable. If this were truly limited to a dozen people and carried out only as far as described, in a very regulated environment...then it might be acceptable as a last resort. But these things get abused and I have a feeling we'd have people getting beaten to death. I have to wonder about the mental health of the interrogators. Being given the power to hit people like that can't be good for you.

Do you really think that those would be considered torture? I think there's a fine line between "roughing someone up" a bit and "torture." From the way they're described, they really don't sound too unreasonable (in reference to the first three) to me. I'm sure police use worse tactics in our own cities when interrogating criminals for robberies and such. The first three tactics don't bring the psychological damage which is bound to be instilled by the last three and I don't think the physical aspect is harsh enough to be considered "torture."

Just my opinion on the matter, though.

 

[VertigoGal]

XHendrix24...what I said was that while these things might be grudgingly acceptable, they're likely to be abused. And while the statement "torture doesn't work" is probably too simplistic, I have to wonder if these methods have been successfully regulated and effective.

Abomb and only that your are talking about Nazis and Jews shows the lack of memory you 've got...
Who armed this enemy..? The Russia or Europe..???
I think that -CIA- trained Osama and gave him the weapons to use them against the Russians...
I also think that your goverment has rescued many of the Bin Ladens right after 9/11...
We have a rhyme here wich goes like this...
Don't sow winds in order not to mow storms,... if you get me...

check out the thread in the "war" subforum on who armed saddam, please. although, I know you're talking about al queda. while it's true we armed the mujahadeen (I assume that's what you're referring to ), there was a very good reason to do so. I hate to sound like one of the "if it weren't for the army we'd all be speaking german/russian/insert language" people, but the situation could be a lot worse. (I'm not saying that act brought down the soviet union, but you can't pretend it was just for fun that we sent guns in there.) and osama is somewhat estranged from the ol' family, so I don't see how that's so relevent, although it is fishy (thank you michael moore).

verte, do you then think this war is "just"? because saddam used torture and made war on his people? if dresden occured today...

 

[ZeroDude]

What any one of us defines as torture can be defined as something else entirely by another person although to be truthful I cannot condone such actions.

Alas I am not an interrogator and I doubt they can extract information from men who would do worse than they would in their position by asking nicely.

When discussing such subjects I find it useful to reserve the right to impartiality and detachment from hasty decisions and personal belief.

It may be torture to my eyes but there’s no “better” way to deal with these men.

Unless of course there is someone here who can enlighten me.

 

[medmo]

If they were only using these techniques on prisoners who came out of terrorist training camps or from somewhere else where it would be reasonable to assume they had picked up intelligence of value, it would be more understandable, though still torture and therefore wrong in my book. But they're not. In some cases they're doing these things to everyday citizens; farmers in the example below. That doesn't seem the most logical way to win "hearts and minds".

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/11/15/1632233

 

[menelaos]

Yes I'm talking about the mujahadeen...
I also admit the help of the U.S. during WW II because right now I'm reading an Antony Beevor book about it and if it wasn't you I totally believe that we would be speaking russian right now, if off -course were alive or sent in any goulagh...But this is totally different from this that the Bush administration does without anyone control them...

 

[U2DMfan]

1-fine with it
2-fine with it
3-fine with it
4-fine with it
5-pretty close to the line
6-over the line

I wouldn't condone anything that I wouldn't expect if I were a POW myself. I can handle getting slapped and pushed around, big fucking deal. If you are a soldier you are trained to handle much worse than that.

The 'standing' one seems pretty close to being excessive, I'm not sure if I'd be much into that, or want this done to my family or friends (if they were soldiers, granted), and the last one seems over the line, although I am still unsure exactly how they do it.

All that said, I would defer to John McCain on the issue if I actually had a vote that mattered. I don't think any of those techniques seem like they'd work real well anyways. I guess that's what McCain is saying in the first place.

 

[Abomb-baby]

do you think that the use of torture -- such as the ones described above, but there are other rumors going around the Muslim world and in the mainstream american media, ranging from smearing menstrul blood on the faces of prisoners to severe beatings to using lions (yes, lions -- or whatever you'd like to call it actually endangers the lives of American soldiers, especially if they should be captured? do you think this makes the torture of captured American service members much more likely? do you think stories like this enrage muslim youth and makes them more likely to strap bombs to themselves?.

Okay Irvine, first of all the Muslim world is full of rumors, half truths, innuendo, speculation, and good old fashioned lies. It sort of reminds me of the New York times. I can remember during the first Gulf war there was a rumor spread around the world about US Marines, that they were forced to kill a member of there family if the wanted to join the Marine Corps. Oh yeah, I remember something a few months back too, about a Koran and a toilet.... Well, I guess YOU value all opinions as long as they agree with YOUR way of thinking. Sorry, but I don't and never will. Is it entirely possible that we can never get along with a certain religious group that wants Israel OBLITERATED, and therefore wants us OBLITERATED because we support their right to exist? Oh, and I really like how you pretty much had nothing to say regarding the fact that I myself have had these techniques used on me and not found them to be mentally or physically abusive, short or long term. Its NOT Torture. I guess when we interrogate terrorist suspects we should just ask NICELY, right? Please give some solutions instead of mere criticism. Its easy to complain about things, harder to offer solutions. As far as I'm concerned, if a group of people in this world are willing to do anything to see us dead, then that means we have to find new and creative ways to exploit there weaknesses.

 

[Irvine511]

Okay Irvine, first of all the Muslim world is full of rumors, half truths, innuendo, speculation, and good old fashioned lies. It sort of reminds me of the New York times. I can remember during the first Gulf war there was a rumor spread around the world about US Marines, that they were forced to kill a member of there family if the wanted to join the Marine Corps. Oh yeah, I remember something a few months back too, about a Koran and a toilet.... Well, I guess YOU value all opinions as long as they agree with YOUR way of thinking. Sorry, but I don't and never will. Is it entirely possible that we can never get along with a certain religious group that wants Israel OBLITERATED, and therefore wants us OBLITERATED because we support their right to exist? Oh, and I really like how you pretty much had nothing to say regarding the fact that I myself have had these techniques used on me and not found them to be mentally or physically abusive, short or long term. Its NOT Torture. I guess when we interrogate terrorist suspects we should just ask NICELY, right? Please give some solutions instead of mere criticism. Its easy to complain about things, harder to offer solutions. As far as I'm concerned, if a group of people in this world are willing to do anything to see us dead, then that means we have to find new and creative ways to exploit there weaknesses.

wow.

you're not even worth the time it took me to respond.

do you have any interpersonal skills?

 

[verte76]

How would you define torture?


With no clear objective definition, we can see a clear divergence in opinion regarding the methods described above. Hell, I've heard someone comment that forcing prisoners to listen to Eminem's Slim Shady album was "torture".

And if we are so quick to write these techniques off as torture (the topic du jour), we'd better stop and take a look at what happens in our own law enforcement facilities - I'm sure we'd find similar elements (not identical tactics) to question suspects that are not far off the scale described in the article.

That's a good question, and I don't have a clear-cut answer. I wouldn't be shocked at anything going on in my state's prisons.

 

[WalkOn21]

Seriously, all of you think that it's hard to forbid this kind of stuff, because it's "hard to define torture"?

Torture already HAS BEEN defined. It's in what's called the Convention of Geneva. A convention which has already been ignored by the Bush government with Guantanamo Bay prison, where prisoners (among who could be innocent people) are being tortured for getting information.

Nobody "deserves torture" (as someone in this thread stated). There's something called human rights and they're there for everyone, prisoners or no prisoners.



Just think about how the U2 band members would think about you if they knew you endorse torture. I wouldn't count on receiving autographs anymore.

 

[Abomb-baby]

Amazing. I get flamed for "insulting" someone on this forum, but when the claws come out at me its OK. Typical Liberal Hypocricy. I love how you refuse to debate me and instead just throw your little flames at me. Well, I'm pretty thick skinned so please give it your best shot. I guess my "neanderthalic thinking" is just beneath you. Oh, and the Geneva Convention applies to members of an ORGANIZED Army, not a group of thugs trying to disrupt a democracy from taking root. Read article 4 Why in the hell should we hold these bastards under the laws of the Geneva Convention?

 

[Irvine511]

Amazing. I get flamed for "insulting" someone on this forum, but when the claws come out at me its OK. Typical Liberal Hypocricy. I love how you refuse to debate me and instead just throw your little flames at me. Well, I'm pretty thick skinned so please give it your best shot. I guess my "neanderthalic thinking" is just beneath you. Oh, and the Geneva Convention applies to members of an ORGANIZED Army, not a group of thugs trying to disrupt a democracy from taking root. Read article 4 Why in the hell should we hold these bastards under the laws of the Geneva Convention?

i'm sorry, were you debating? you sounded like you were regurgitating the most hackneyed, cliched, right wing talking points that really have no place in this forum. most people are far more thoughtful, and you'll see that not a single person who is in favor of the Iraq War has come to your defense. could it be that your posts are so offensive and belligerant that people don't want to be associated with you?

btw, simply because someone does not conform to Article 4 does not mean then that they are unprotected by international law nor does it mean that they are then to be stripped of their legal rights so they can be kept indefintely in a kind of legal netherworld.

 

[Abomb-baby]

I don't need anyone to come to my defense, unlike the majority of liberals here who find someone with a difference of opinion and then bully and beat them down until they leave the forum. Why do my as you say, "right wing talking points" have no place in this forum? Oh thats right, I'm not drinking your Kool-aid so I'm not welcome, is that it? And truthfully how many ppl in this forum are really in favor of the war? Hell, I'm not really in favor of it. But I know we can't leave now. Where exactly have I been so belligerant? I guess if you call NOT agreeing with your twisted Urban Utopian ideology belligerant, than I'm guilty as charged. No right or wrong, just various shades of grey, right?Unless were talking about the poor unfortunate freedom Fighters (TERRORISTS) who have been forced into Gulags(HA) at GITMO. Without due process. It wouldn't matter if these guys had the best lawyers money could buy. The liberals would Scream KANGAROO COURT faster than a speeding car bomb. International law? Are you serious? I guess we should just bow down to the hague now. Gimme a frekkin break. Maybe we should just disband our entire judicial system. why do we need it? We can just have the Europeans show us how to run our country. If you want to talk about torture, than lets talk about N. Korea, China, and most parts of Africa.

 

[financeguy]

We can just have the Europeans show us how to run our country.

Do we have to?

 

[nbcrusader]

Just think about how the U2 band members would think about you if they knew you endorse torture. I wouldn't count on receiving autographs anymore.

Oh dear. What would Bono do?

 

[financeguy]

Oh dear. What would Bono do?

I guess you closed your eyes and covered your ears for the anti-torture segments when you went to see U2 in concert.

 

[nbcrusader]

btw, simply because someone does not conform to Article 4 does not mean then that they are unprotected by international law nor does it mean that they are then to be stripped of their legal rights so they can be kept indefintely in a kind of legal netherworld.

Should an insurgant/terrorist really expect protection under international conventions when they do not live under those same conventions?

This is not a new concept. There have always been "rules of battle" respected by both sides in a conflict. If one was found in violation of those rules, they often paid with their lives.