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Old 11-22-2005, 08:04 PM   #46
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The example that you give firstly assumes that torture was used as the basis of these alerts, I certainly havent seen the media furore at those specific instances where alerts were issued based on intelligence obtained by torture. Then you go onto say that none of these alerts have remotely turned out to be true - and this in itself completely overlooks the foiled plots, arrests and even killed operatives that have occured the world over since 2001.
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Old 11-22-2005, 08:09 PM   #47
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Originally posted by melon
No wonder most of our "intelligence" extracted from them has been nothing but crap. Tortured men are most tempted to tell their torturers what they want to hear, not necessarily the truth.

Melon
How could you possibly know what sort of good or bad intelligence we've received? Do you work for the CIA? It would be impossible to know what has or hasn't happened because of these interrogation techniques unless you have first hand knowledge. One thing is for sure. Extreme torture practices yield very little in credible information. That is why the government doesn't use them. They're unreliable. These aren't extreme practices. Sitting in a cold cell? Some here would find raising your voice extreme. In survival school, these techniques are used on our own military. Do you think that we would put our own military in harms way?NO. Mock executions, Beatings to the point of bruising or other injury, burning, electrocution, Rape, all unreliable practices and something I wouldn't condone under ANY circumstances. The practises that were originally listed however, aren't any of those.
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Old 11-22-2005, 08:13 PM   #48
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Originally posted by Abomb-baby


Do you think that we would put our own military in harms way?NO.
ummm... isn't that exactly what troops are for? Of course they are put in harm's way.
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Old 11-22-2005, 08:18 PM   #49
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Originally posted by Abomb-baby
How could you possibly know what sort of good or bad intelligence we've received? Do you work for the CIA? It would be impossible to know what has or hasn't happened because of these interrogation techniques unless you have first hand knowledge.
And there's the problem. We're supposed to just "trust" that the government is doing right. I'm supposed to trust that that rock that President Bush holds in his hand keeps the terrorists away, and we're never allowed to question whether it's actually true.

We "trusted" the Eisenhower Administration and the best we got from him was a bunch of overthrown leftist elected governments worldwide, radioactive Pacific islands, and poisoning mentally challenged people living in asylums for "science."

The burden of proof is on the government. Prove to me that that rock keeps away the terrorists.

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Old 11-22-2005, 08:34 PM   #50
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Well Melon, I know you would just love for the CIA to come out and say, " hey, this is what we've stopped from happening", but its not gonna happen. National security is more important than your need to know anything.
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Old 11-22-2005, 08:49 PM   #51
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I seriously question all attitudes here. The argument that a right to live exeeds the individual liberty is a pile of crap - if that was true then one could say that North Korea is a nice and safe place to live.

The argument that you "don't need to know" only goes so far, in terms of operational secrecy and security it is justified but there must be a time limit and a degree of information that does not compromise operations or legal proceedings should be put out there.
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Old 11-22-2005, 09:19 PM   #52
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I seriously question all attitudes here. The argument that a right to live exeeds the individual liberty is a pile of crap - if that was true then one could say that North Korea is a nice and safe place to live.
Pure bull, that is a dangerous fallacy. I would be very grateful if you would stop describing yourself as a libertarian, your philisophy has not an iota to do with what libertarians truly represent.
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Old 11-22-2005, 09:24 PM   #53
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What fallacy? I am saying that that line of argument that the "right not to be blown up" exeeds the right to browse the internet without being monitored or walk down the street without CCTV cameras is flawed is a pile of crap. I am coming down on the side of individual liberty over measures that restrict it in the name of security but don't actually prevent anything.

What the hell are you reading into it?
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Old 11-22-2005, 09:33 PM   #54
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
What fallacy? I am saying that that line of argument that the "right not to be blown up" exeeds the right to browse the internet without being monitored or walk down the street without CCTV cameras is flawed is a pile of crap.
Interesting change of focus.
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Old 11-22-2005, 09:39 PM   #55
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Originally posted by Abomb-baby
Well Melon, I know you would just love for the CIA to come out and say, " hey, this is what we've stopped from happening", but its not gonna happen. National security is more important than your need to know anything.
The people rule the government, not the other way around. That's the difference between a democracy and a dictatorship. If I wanted a reckless government that did whatever the hell it pleased with no accountability, I'd have asked the Vatican to run the U.S.

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Old 11-22-2005, 09:40 PM   #56
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Change of focus? I am baffled, the case remains the same in both cases. Willful surrendering of whatever rights you may have in the name of security is flawed. That is not a call for doing nothing, that position cannot be taken to its extreme here because in the real world things are a lot murkier at times.

People arguing for tighter measures invariably argue that their right to security trumps liberty. That is exactly what was being argued by Abomb-baby. That logic is an absolute position that can lead down a very dangerous road. The ultimate example is the DPRK, where state security has taken over practically all liberties to a point where the nation is beyond a slave state. Being the logical extreme of surrendering liberty for security. I think that security and liberty may not always be mutually exclusive and that more freedoms can do a lot of good in the GWOT, regardless of the shit that is piled out by government from "Alert not Alarmed" fridge magnets to banning metal knives and forks on planes.

I argue in favour of individual liberty over security in these instances and my philosophy is apparently the antithesis of libertarianism.
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Old 11-22-2005, 09:46 PM   #57
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National security is more important than your need to know anything.
This is the exact opposite argument to the one that I made.
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Old 11-22-2005, 10:23 PM   #58
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Well, I for one don't feel like my individual "Rights" have been trampled on since 9/11 or the implementation of the Patriot act. If I'm doing nothing WRONG, what is my concern? I could really give a crap if the government looks to see what books I'm checking out at the library. Maybe I should care, but I don't. I just don't feel like anything has changed. And while we're on the subject, doesn't Britain have like a TON of those CCTV cameras all over the country? I mean that seems to go against the very nature of this whole civil rights concern. Are ppl up in arms about it in Britain? I'm honestly asking because I don't know. But I think they have been using them for years.
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Old 11-22-2005, 10:28 PM   #59
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Did CCTV stop the London Bombings? Did it prevent the shooting of de Menezes? While handy in reconstructing events I do not think that these networks of cameras are worth surrendering your privacy for.

You may not be worried about your liberties at this time, you may willfully surrender them to government, but when the time comes that they do start exercising these security powers in a manner that you find offensive what will you be able to do?
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Old 11-22-2005, 11:12 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by Abomb-baby
Well, I for one don't feel like my individual "Rights" have been trampled on since 9/11 or the implementation of the Patriot act. If I'm doing nothing WRONG, what is my concern? I could really give a crap if the government looks to see what books I'm checking out at the library. Maybe I should care, but I don't. I just don't feel like anything has changed.


and what color is your skin?

and what is your religion?
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