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Old 11-21-2005, 07:25 PM   #16
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What any one of us defines as torture can be defined as something else entirely by another person although to be truthful I cannot condone such actions.

Alas I am not an interrogator and I doubt they can extract information from men who would do worse than they would in their position by asking nicely.

When discussing such subjects I find it useful to reserve the right to impartiality and detachment from hasty decisions and personal belief.

It may be torture to my eyes but there’s no “better” way to deal with these men.

Unless of course there is someone here who can enlighten me.
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Old 11-21-2005, 08:35 PM   #17
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If they were only using these techniques on prisoners who came out of terrorist training camps or from somewhere else where it would be reasonable to assume they had picked up intelligence of value, it would be more understandable, though still torture and therefore wrong in my book. But they're not. In some cases they're doing these things to everyday citizens; farmers in the example below. That doesn't seem the most logical way to win "hearts and minds".

http://www.democracynow.org/article..../11/15/1632233
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Old 11-21-2005, 08:51 PM   #18
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Yes I'm talking about the mujahadeen...
I also admit the help of the U.S. during WW II because right now I'm reading an Antony Beevor book about it and if it wasn't you I totally believe that we would be speaking russian right now, if off -course were alive or sent in any goulagh...But this is totally different from this that the Bush administration does without anyone control them...
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Old 11-22-2005, 01:36 AM   #19
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Re: is this torture?

1-fine with it
2-fine with it
3-fine with it
4-fine with it
5-pretty close to the line
6-over the line

I wouldn't condone anything that I wouldn't expect if I were a POW myself. I can handle getting slapped and pushed around, big fucking deal. If you are a soldier you are trained to handle much worse than that.

The 'standing' one seems pretty close to being excessive, I'm not sure if I'd be much into that, or want this done to my family or friends (if they were soldiers, granted), and the last one seems over the line, although I am still unsure exactly how they do it.

All that said, I would defer to John McCain on the issue if I actually had a vote that mattered. I don't think any of those techniques seem like they'd work real well anyways. I guess that's what McCain is saying in the first place.
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Old 11-22-2005, 11:46 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


do you think that the use of torture -- such as the ones described above, but there are other rumors going around the Muslim world and in the mainstream american media, ranging from smearing menstrul blood on the faces of prisoners to severe beatings to using lions (yes, lions -- or whatever you'd like to call it actually endangers the lives of American soldiers, especially if they should be captured? do you think this makes the torture of captured American service members much more likely? do you think stories like this enrage muslim youth and makes them more likely to strap bombs to themselves?.
Okay Irvine, first of all the Muslim world is full of rumors, half truths, innuendo, speculation, and good old fashioned lies. It sort of reminds me of the New York times. I can remember during the first Gulf war there was a rumor spread around the world about US Marines, that they were forced to kill a member of there family if the wanted to join the Marine Corps. Oh yeah, I remember something a few months back too, about a Koran and a toilet.... Well, I guess YOU value all opinions as long as they agree with YOUR way of thinking. Sorry, but I don't and never will. Is it entirely possible that we can never get along with a certain religious group that wants Israel OBLITERATED, and therefore wants us OBLITERATED because we support their right to exist? Oh, and I really like how you pretty much had nothing to say regarding the fact that I myself have had these techniques used on me and not found them to be mentally or physically abusive, short or long term. Its NOT Torture. I guess when we interrogate terrorist suspects we should just ask NICELY, right? Please give some solutions instead of mere criticism. Its easy to complain about things, harder to offer solutions. As far as I'm concerned, if a group of people in this world are willing to do anything to see us dead, then that means we have to find new and creative ways to exploit there weaknesses.
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Old 11-22-2005, 12:31 PM   #21
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Originally posted by Abomb-baby


Okay Irvine, first of all the Muslim world is full of rumors, half truths, innuendo, speculation, and good old fashioned lies. It sort of reminds me of the New York times. I can remember during the first Gulf war there was a rumor spread around the world about US Marines, that they were forced to kill a member of there family if the wanted to join the Marine Corps. Oh yeah, I remember something a few months back too, about a Koran and a toilet.... Well, I guess YOU value all opinions as long as they agree with YOUR way of thinking. Sorry, but I don't and never will. Is it entirely possible that we can never get along with a certain religious group that wants Israel OBLITERATED, and therefore wants us OBLITERATED because we support their right to exist? Oh, and I really like how you pretty much had nothing to say regarding the fact that I myself have had these techniques used on me and not found them to be mentally or physically abusive, short or long term. Its NOT Torture. I guess when we interrogate terrorist suspects we should just ask NICELY, right? Please give some solutions instead of mere criticism. Its easy to complain about things, harder to offer solutions. As far as I'm concerned, if a group of people in this world are willing to do anything to see us dead, then that means we have to find new and creative ways to exploit there weaknesses.


wow.

you're not even worth the time it took me to respond.

do you have any interpersonal skills?
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Old 11-22-2005, 01:07 PM   #22
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


How would you define torture?


With no clear objective definition, we can see a clear divergence in opinion regarding the methods described above. Hell, I've heard someone comment that forcing prisoners to listen to Eminem's Slim Shady album was "torture".

And if we are so quick to write these techniques off as torture (the topic du jour), we'd better stop and take a look at what happens in our own law enforcement facilities - I'm sure we'd find similar elements (not identical tactics) to question suspects that are not far off the scale described in the article.
That's a good question, and I don't have a clear-cut answer. I wouldn't be shocked at anything going on in my state's prisons.
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Old 11-22-2005, 02:22 PM   #23
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Seriously, all of you think that it's hard to forbid this kind of stuff, because it's "hard to define torture"?

Torture already HAS BEEN defined. It's in what's called the Convention of Geneva. A convention which has already been ignored by the Bush government with Guantanamo Bay prison, where prisoners (among who could be innocent people) are being tortured for getting information.

Nobody "deserves torture" (as someone in this thread stated). There's something called human rights and they're there for everyone, prisoners or no prisoners.



Just think about how the U2 band members would think about you if they knew you endorse torture. I wouldn't count on receiving autographs anymore.
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Old 11-22-2005, 03:39 PM   #24
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Amazing. I get flamed for "insulting" someone on this forum, but when the claws come out at me its OK. Typical Liberal Hypocricy. I love how you refuse to debate me and instead just throw your little flames at me. Well, I'm pretty thick skinned so please give it your best shot. I guess my "neanderthalic thinking" is just beneath you. Oh, and the Geneva Convention applies to members of an ORGANIZED Army, not a group of thugs trying to disrupt a democracy from taking root. Read article 4 Why in the hell should we hold these bastards under the laws of the Geneva Convention?
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Old 11-22-2005, 03:52 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Abomb-baby
Amazing. I get flamed for "insulting" someone on this forum, but when the claws come out at me its OK. Typical Liberal Hypocricy. I love how you refuse to debate me and instead just throw your little flames at me. Well, I'm pretty thick skinned so please give it your best shot. I guess my "neanderthalic thinking" is just beneath you. Oh, and the Geneva Convention applies to members of an ORGANIZED Army, not a group of thugs trying to disrupt a democracy from taking root. Read article 4 Why in the hell should we hold these bastards under the laws of the Geneva Convention?


i'm sorry, were you debating? you sounded like you were regurgitating the most hackneyed, cliched, right wing talking points that really have no place in this forum. most people are far more thoughtful, and you'll see that not a single person who is in favor of the Iraq War has come to your defense. could it be that your posts are so offensive and belligerant that people don't want to be associated with you?

btw, simply because someone does not conform to Article 4 does not mean then that they are unprotected by international law nor does it mean that they are then to be stripped of their legal rights so they can be kept indefintely in a kind of legal netherworld.
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Old 11-22-2005, 04:37 PM   #26
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I don't need anyone to come to my defense, unlike the majority of liberals here who find someone with a difference of opinion and then bully and beat them down until they leave the forum. Why do my as you say, "right wing talking points" have no place in this forum? Oh thats right, I'm not drinking your Kool-aid so I'm not welcome, is that it? And truthfully how many ppl in this forum are really in favor of the war? Hell, I'm not really in favor of it. But I know we can't leave now. Where exactly have I been so belligerant? I guess if you call NOT agreeing with your twisted Urban Utopian ideology belligerant, than I'm guilty as charged. No right or wrong, just various shades of grey, right?Unless were talking about the poor unfortunate freedom Fighters (TERRORISTS) who have been forced into Gulags(HA) at GITMO. Without due process. It wouldn't matter if these guys had the best lawyers money could buy. The liberals would Scream KANGAROO COURT faster than a speeding car bomb. International law? Are you serious? I guess we should just bow down to the hague now. Gimme a frekkin break. Maybe we should just disband our entire judicial system. why do we need it? We can just have the Europeans show us how to run our country. If you want to talk about torture, than lets talk about N. Korea, China, and most parts of Africa.
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Old 11-22-2005, 04:40 PM   #27
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Originally posted by Abomb-baby
We can just have the Europeans show us how to run our country.
Do we have to?
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Old 11-22-2005, 04:54 PM   #28
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Just think about how the U2 band members would think about you if they knew you endorse torture. I wouldn't count on receiving autographs anymore.
Oh dear. What would Bono do?
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Old 11-22-2005, 04:57 PM   #29
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Oh dear. What would Bono do?
I guess you closed your eyes and covered your ears for the anti-torture segments when you went to see U2 in concert.
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Old 11-22-2005, 04:58 PM   #30
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Originally posted by Irvine511
btw, simply because someone does not conform to Article 4 does not mean then that they are unprotected by international law nor does it mean that they are then to be stripped of their legal rights so they can be kept indefintely in a kind of legal netherworld.
Should an insurgant/terrorist really expect protection under international conventions when they do not live under those same conventions?

This is not a new concept. There have always been "rules of battle" respected by both sides in a conflict. If one was found in violation of those rules, they often paid with their lives.
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