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Old 01-07-2007, 01:16 AM   #106
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Someone even pointed out to you that only 5% of identity thieves are illegal immigrants. What about the other 95%???
White people. Let's shoot them!
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Old 01-07-2007, 01:23 AM   #107
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White people. Let's shoot them!
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Old 01-07-2007, 02:23 AM   #108
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BOO HOO

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Originally posted by PlaTheGreat
I'd be very weary of using the term "invading" when you are talking about immigrants. Most of these people are below the poverty line and can no longer survive in a falling Mexican government.
In all honesty, if we want to continue preaching "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" we should give some leeway to the people eagerly trying to join this country.

There are people willing to die to have a better life here and all of a sudden you are slapping them as "criminals" guilty of "war crimes" (whoa, quotation abuse ). I'm not talking about your video. I'm not talking about hostile Mexicans. (But honestly, can you blame them for being hostile when U.S. citizens have set up militia forts to shoot people trying to come over here?)

Every day I see illegal immigrants trying very hard to get a daily job to support themselves or their family. They aren't moral criminals. And they certainly didn't mean to "invade" as you put it. It's not like they sit around in the thousands and plan how to sneakily cross the border. They are families leaving everything they have, their extended family, their histories, their possessions for the possibility of a better life.
I have illegal immigrants in my stepmother's family. A 92 year old woman who would have died without the health care that is offered in the United States. Would you call her a criminal? Is it so criminal to want life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

Haha: Would you deny for others what you demand for yourself?

I'm just thinking globally. I have no idea what the "crossing the border" laws are or how difficult it is to get here legally. But I'm just saying to cut the non-violent illegal immigrants some slack. They aren't criminals.
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Old 01-07-2007, 02:52 AM   #109
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Wah wah.
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Old 01-07-2007, 03:15 AM   #110
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I am not a fan of illegals.and it dosen't matter what country they are from.For all the good you claim they do there is also alot of bad that comes with it.People who enjoy a high standard of living do not notice how this problem affects low income American Citizens.Why do so many people work 2 jobs?Do you think they do it for extra money?or do they do it to pay the high taxes that illegals are partly responsible for?As an American Citizen I will vote for any one who protects MY RIGHT to the pursuit of happiness.
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Old 01-07-2007, 03:26 AM   #111
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I am not a fan of illegals.and it dosen't matter what country they are from.For all the good you claim they do there is also alot of bad that comes with it.People who enjoy a high standard of living do not notice how this problem affects low income American Citizens.Why do so many people work 2 jobs?Do you think they do it for extra money?or do they do it to pay the high taxes that illegals are partly responsible for?As an American Citizen I will vote for any one who protects MY RIGHT to the pursuit of happiness.
You'd be surprised the jobs they do that even the homeless wouldn't do.

How many low income Americans are willing to lay brick for 12 hours a day at less than minimum wage? It's sad, but this sometimes is the only way your house will come out on budget.

By no means am I supporting this type of "slave labor" but in order for YOU to live the lifestyle you are, these people work these wages. This is what desperation does.

So for you to bitch while these people are literally slaving, makes you a hypocrite!
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Old 01-08-2007, 12:44 AM   #112
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You'd be surprised the jobs they do that even the homeless wouldn't do.

How many low income Americans are willing to lay brick for 12 hours a day at less than minimum wage? It's sad, but this sometimes is the only way your house will come out on budget.

By no means am I supporting this type of "slave labor" but in order for YOU to live the lifestyle you are, these people work these wages. This is what desperation does.

So for you to bitch while these people are literally slaving, makes you a hypocrite!
That point of view makes me laugh!

Why don't you ask a union brick layer that question.All Americans would do those jobs!For the right price!But that is just it isn't it,They work for less because Americans can not afford to.

If I told you you can have a job in a beautiful Country lets say Germany and you can make 10 to 20 times what you would make in America and your living conditions will be about the same if not better than you have now,would you go?

Oh,by the way YOU do support that slave labor! HYPOCRITE!
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Old 01-08-2007, 03:55 AM   #113
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I think the main issue is not illegial immigrants but the reuthless selfish companies and contracters who offer jobs with the most disgusting wages attached to them, making more and more profit for themselves and taking advantage of immigrants and causing bigger problems.

Why is the pursuit of happiness imposed with make money. When are were going to realise how much we are fucking things up all in the pursuit of making a quick buck for what?
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Old 01-08-2007, 05:58 AM   #114
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Originally posted by u2fan628


That point of view makes me laugh!

Why don't you ask a union brick layer that question.All Americans would do those jobs!For the right price!But that is just it isn't it,They work for less because Americans can not afford to.

If I told you you can have a job in a beautiful Country lets say Germany and you can make 10 to 20 times what you would make in America and your living conditions will be about the same if not better than you have now,would you go?

Oh,by the way YOU do support that slave labor! HYPOCRITE!

Eh, we are taking the people from all over the world. We can't take the Americans additionally
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Old 01-08-2007, 07:18 AM   #115
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^ Vincent, what are immigration politics in Germany like? Is illegal immigration a major issue there? My impression is that it's easier to attain legal permanent resident status (not necessarily citizenship) in Germany than it is here, but I'm not really sure on that. (Here's a post I made awhile back briefly outlining how that process typically works in the US.)
Quote:
Originally posted by dazzlingamy
I think the main issue is not illegial immigrants but the reuthless selfish companies and contracters who offer jobs with the most disgusting wages attached to them, making more and more profit for themselves and taking advantage of immigrants and causing bigger problems.

Why is the pursuit of happiness imposed with make money. When are were going to realise how much we are fucking things up all in the pursuit of making a quick buck for what?
I'll resurrect what Lies said earlier at this point, because I think it offers at least the beginnings of a practical answer to your question...
Quote:
Originally posted by Liesje
IMO, this problem seems to go around in circles and each point on the circle only perpetuates it further. I think the way Justin's arguments flow are a good example of how you can really blame anyone here, it just depends on what perspective you're taking at the time.

What I see is this: Many people in Mexico are poor and because of corruption or bad economics, really have no chance. They can't afford to cross legally, so they do it illegally. You can't get a good job as an illegal, but ironically you're basically forced to in order to BE legal. Like my friend from Central America who was from a poor family and now has the same education I do - he was required to find a full time job that would sign a three year contract in order to maintain a valid visa, while I get off easy because I'm a born citizen and can float between shitty part time jobs or unemployment as I please. So then people start blaming the corporations who either won't give good jobs to legals or will give shitty jobs to illegals because they will take less pay. But it's not always their fault either. Did you know that they are not allowed to fire someone just because they suspect that person is illegal? My dad's employer has thousands of illegals, and everyone knows they are illegal, but they can't prove it because they've got SSNs even thought we all know they aren't valid. They are hard working, reliable people who will work for minimum wage and when required, produce some kind of documentation "proving" they are legal. Companies don't have the resources or the authority to run background checks just because they suspect the documentation is falsified. So then we go one step further and blame the US government for making it so damn hard for people to become legal and get a normal job. But where do we draw the line? Do we just let everyone in? We don't even have enough jobs for our own people, some of whom are just as poor. We're right back where we started.
I'm not sure to what extent the above applies to farming, but farming is likewise far from a high-profit-margin industry, so I'd imagine it's much the same. Like BVS indicated, it would take steep increases in cost of living pretty much across the board to enable many industries to pay significantly higher wages than they currently do, especially large ones with thousands of employees. Obviously there are exceptions to that and I'm not arguing that it's a morally adequate answer in any case (nor, of course, am I arguing that *literally* criminally low wages are OK), but unfortunately that's the reality. I'm not myself opposed to empowering and even requiring companies to do more background checks, although that would require far more coordination among USCIS, SS, IRS and so on than presently exists, as well as steep increases in the number of federal agents devoted to enforcing that.

I don't though see where "They work for less because Americans can't afford to" makes much sense--illegal immigrants have to pay rent and taxes and food and transport just like anyone else, so whatever the injustice might be in their taking these jobs, it doesn't consist in them becoming millionaires through work that leaves ordinary citizens poor. Whether they place an undue burden on other taxpayers is a question I'd personally have to plead "unconvinced either way on" because the available studies on that contradict each other pretty fiercely, which is unsurprising since they share no common methodology and use wildly different measurement criteria.

That said, I do find myself somewhat sympathetic to the resistance to accepting "These people are desperate" as a justification of the status quo. Hundreds of millions of people all over the world are desperate but it's not realistic to expect the developed countries to absorb them all, nor is it fair to the rest of them for one particular group of very poor nationals to be allowed to dodge the same hoops everyone else has to jump through to get here legally, however understandable what's motivating them may be. I don't see a hypermilitarized border as a cost-effective solution to that though; everything I've read suggests that making it harder to get jobs without verifiable documentation would be a lot more efficient and eliminate the appeal of coming here illegally in the first place. I do also think that the citizenship process ought to be streamlined; whether or not Mexico's quotas should be adjusted is another sticky question and requires more certainty than (so far as I can tell) anyone really has as to just how intrinsically dependent the minimum-wage sector currently is on illegal immigrants' labor--in all likelihood neither "these are jobs no one else will take" nor "poor Americans are getting crowded out of these jobs en masse" are in fact accurate for more than a few situations.
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Old 01-08-2007, 09:32 AM   #116
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Originally posted by u2fan628


That point of view makes me laugh!

Why don't you ask a union brick layer that question.All Americans would do those jobs!For the right price!But that is just it isn't it,They work for less because Americans can not afford to.
Wow, you missed my point by a mile. The right price isn't there. What part of that did you miss?
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Originally posted by u2fan628

If I told you you can have a job in a beautiful Country lets say Germany and you can make 10 to 20 times what you would make in America and your living conditions will be about the same if not better than you have now,would you go?

Oh,by the way YOU do support that slave labor! HYPOCRITE!
So you do understand why they come over here? You really went a long way to disprove yourself.
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Old 01-08-2007, 12:25 PM   #117
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I don't have detailed information about the problem,yet.
Of course illegal immigrants are a concern for Germany and the EU.
Since countries such as Poland and the Tchech Republic, to which we have direct borders, became members of the EU in 2004 the situation eased quite a bit, because people from these countries, or the other new member countries, didn't come here illegally anymore.
Now they come here legally.

Another reason is that the wars in the Balkan countries are finally over (more or less at least, if the K-For forces left there would be a new civil war within weeks). In the 90's there was quite a lot of migration from there, and not everybody was granted asylum.

Also, Germany is very often only a transit country for illegal immigrants that want to get to Scandinavia, Holland, England or France. The reason very often is just, that the immigrants come from former colonies of these states, and therefore want to get to these countries because they know them best. And quite often they speak the language.
Since Germany lost its colonies very early, we don't have this problem as much.

Of course, most illegal immigrants come from east European or Asian countries. Immigrants, or I would rather call them refugees, from Africa mostly try to get through the Sahara, and then take a ship (more a wreckage than a ship with far too many passengers) to get to Europe. Many of them only make it to the Canary Islands, or to Lampedusa in the Mediterranean or get caught by a patrol boat. Other ships sink. People who make it to the Canaries or Lampedusa are on the one hand very lucky because in most cases they will survive, but on they other hand they are unlucky since they will get sent back to Africa or stay in the immigration prisons if authorities can't find out from which country they come from.
Another try is to get to Spain, or at least to one of the Spanish exclaves in Morocco. But that's not as easy as it might sound.

It's pretty hard to say how much of an economical concern illegal immigrants are for Germany. As in the US most of them work as brick layers, and the biggest problem is illegal prostitution. That's a quite prosperous market, and so the trafficking of women is very common.
But many companies also can get low wage worker from the new EU member states legally, and don't have to pay them so much higher wages, so it's not easy to compare illegal workers from legal workers and their effects on the economy.

Still, it is suggested that 1/5 of the French motorways is built by illiegal immigrants, and also some iindustries wouldn't survive without illegal workers.

Our border security is one of the best equipped units with helicopters, night vision goggles and all the high-tech you need. So that proves that illegal immigration still is a major concern, but it's not that bad that we are planning a new wall.

Whereas countries like Spain or Italy view this very differently, because nearly every day a ship lands on one of the islands with thousands of illegal immigrants.

My comment, that we are taking people from all over the world wasn't that far fetched since Germany is seen by many people from Africa or Asia as a very prosperous country, where they have the best chance to survive and even support their families back home.
So traffickers use this picture by telling these people stories about European countries and success stories of others they have helped that are just not true. And only very few actually make it to mainland Europe, because very often their ships don't make the trip.

The few that really make it often then have to work for the trafficker to pay back the trip, and if they are very lucky they work mainly to support their families.

But the solution isn't any fence, or more border patrol, but to help these people in their countries to survive.
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Old 01-08-2007, 07:52 PM   #118
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You never had a point.
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Old 01-08-2007, 09:24 PM   #119
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You never had a point.
I guess this is your way of avoiding the discussion...
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Old 01-08-2007, 10:05 PM   #120
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I read something about this subject. Did you know that our economy (Honduran economy that is) is almost 30% made up of the money that is being sent back from hondurans in the states?

I don't even know what else to say. It's so sad to know those things.
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