Is this good enough reason to Close or Secure the border more?

The friendliest place on the web for anyone that follows U2.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
mattgerth said:


Yeah I suppose we can avoid the issue and come up with some more cute little sayings since you can't come up with a real reason as to why we should let these people do as they please. So basically it's a bleeding heart liberal thing with you?:madspit:

Well, you've yet to come up with a real reason why we should be shooting these people on sight, and you brought it up.

The onus is on you, champ.
 
Justin24 said:


You of all people should not be talking, living in Texas I believe? Didn't you say that your family owned a farm? Are your helpers of illegal or legal status?


I have family who are farmers, yes. And ALL farmers have benefitted from immigrant labor here.
 
They should have only fired if there being fired at and if they were then to bad they missed hitting them.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:



I have family who are farmers, yes. And ALL farmers have benefitted from immigrant labor here.

But don't you complain about the corporations for hiring illegal immigrants?
 
I've got to go to work, this is getting out of hand anyways so I'm going to take my out before I get obscenely frustrated. I'll be back tonight after work.

If this thread is still open, that is.
 
:mad: :mad:
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20070104-120950-4277r.htm

Social Security for illegal aliens
By Stephen Dinan
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
January 4, 2007


An agreement the Bush administration reached with Mexico on Social Security benefits would allow illegal aliens granted amnesty in the future to claim credit for the time they worked illegally.
The deal was reached in 2004 but never released publicly because it hasn't been submitted to Congress. The TREA Senior Citizens League, a Social Security advocacy group, recently obtained the document through a Freedom of Information Act, and said it confirms the group's worst fears.
The document is a jumble of definitions and legal language, but a spokesman for the group said what's important is what's not in the text: It does nothing to prevent undocumented aliens who later get legal status from receiving benefits for the time they worked illegally. And that comes as the Social Security system's finances are about to be put under greater strain by the retirement of baby boomers.
"If you open up the trust fund to people who have been working in the country illegally for many years, that bankruptcy date can only come sooner," spokesman Brad Phillips said. "People on the other side of this, people who have been arguing that of course illegal aliens can't get their hands on Social Security benefits, now can't make that argument easily anymore."
But Mark Lassiter, a spokesman for the Social Security Administration, said the agreement doesn't change U.S. law. The law states that those who do not have authorization to work will not get benefits under a totalization agreement.
"To get Social Security benefits, you do have to be legally in the United States. This agreement does not address in any way immigration, immigration laws or override current law," he said, adding that a 2004 law, the Social Security Protection Act, prevents illegal aliens from getting benefits.
But the seniors group said the 2004 law also states that if those aliens later get legal status -- through an amnesty or some sort of legalization plan such as the one President Bush and the Senate tried to enact last year -- they would be able to collect the benefits based on their time as illegal workers.
The deal has not taken effect because Mr. Bush has not signed it or submitted it to Congress. Once he does, Congress would have 60 days to vote against it or it automatically would become law.
Congress has never defeated any of the 21 other totalization agreements the United States has reached. Most of those have been with European nations, with the financial effects known to be smaller.
Some lawmakers say Mr. Bush has not submitted the agreement because it would get caught up in the debate over Social Security's poor fiscal health, which could doom the measure.
Totalization agreements end double taxation, so workers have to pay only into one country's system, and allow a worker who didn't have enough credits in any one country to qualify for benefits to pool his or her credits. In the United States, it takes 10 years, or 40 quarters, to qualify.
Mr. Lassiter said that's not to say Mexican workers who spent less time, such as the six quarters minimum needed to pool credits, would get benefits equal to someone who had worked his or her full life here.
As for the document's status, he said the Social Security Administration hasn't submitted it to the State Department because officials are still waiting for the Mexican government to help reach a side agreement on how to treat illegal aliens. The United States sent a diplomatic note trying to clarify the situation but has not heard back from the Mexican government, he said.
"At this point, there's no action that is planned or that will be taken until that process goes through," Mr. Lassiter said.
Rafael Laveaga, a spokesman for the Mexican Embassy in Washington, said the agreement has to be ratified by the Mexican Congress as well, but beyond that he had no details to offer.
The issue has been contentious for several years.
A 2003 report by the General Accounting Office, Congress' investigative branch, said the agreement with Mexico was shoddy work that didn't investigate the reliability of Mexico's data, or take into account the millions of illegal aliens who would become eligible.
The GAO also disputed the Social Security Administration's estimate that the agreement would cost $105 million a year for the first five years, saying the costs could be much higher given the uncertainty of who could benefit.
 
Also, Justin, something to keep in mind, is that low-wage employment is not just an illegal immigrant issue. If you're near a library, I suggest reading The Betrayal of Work, by Beth Shulman.

You asked me if immigration brings down wages. I'm just pointing out that it is these corporations that are bringing down wages, and negatively affecting the lives of not just immigrants, but american citizens too.
 
mattgerth said:


Yeah I suppose we can avoid the issue and come up with some more cute little sayings since you can't come up with a real reason as to why we should let these people do as they please. So basically it's a bleeding heart liberal thing with you?:madspit:

Matt, do you have a problem with logic? I'm being serious.

How is this an example of someone getting away as they please?

Have I missed something? They didn't cross and no one got hurt, show me what part of that was them getting away as they please?
 
Justin24 said:


But don't you complain about the corporations for hiring illegal immigrants?

Where have I ever even talked about this?:huh:

Justin stick to the issues at hand. I asked you a questions and brought up relevant issues, stop ignoring me.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


Matt, do you have a problem with logic? I'm being serious.

How is this an example of someone getting away as they please?

Have I missed something? They didn't cross and no one got hurt, show me what part of that was them getting away as they please?

Have I missed something? YES

1: They did in fact cross the border (I read some more news articles about this incident)

2: This goes way beyond this one incident. You do realize that there are millions of illegals living in the USA who are getting away with it. Trafficking drugs, increased crime, putting a strain on our government, etc....

3: As far as shooting everybody goes.... if you give them a reason to not want to cross the border then they won't. I am sure you will have a field day with that.

4: This has been fun, but it is quiting time and I am going home....which has been invaded by squirrels!!! ARGHHHH
Have a great weekend everyone!!
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


Where have I ever even talked about this?:huh:

Justin stick to the issues at hand. I asked you a questions and brought up relevant issues, stop ignoring me.

I am not ignoring you and I believe I have answered your questions.

and as far as the Article. If that happens and they get SS#'s I think then they should pay for all the criminal illegal immigrants that are in our prison system.
 
mattgerth said:


Have I missed something? YES

1: They did in fact cross the border (I read some more news articles about this incident)

2: This goes way beyond this one incident. You do realize that there are millions of illegals living in the USA who are getting away with it. Trafficking drugs, increased crime, putting a strain on our government, etc....

3: As far as shooting everybody goes.... if you give them a reason to not want to cross the border then they won't. I am sure you will have a field day with that.

Whatever, you can't use the specifics of this article to argue your point and then afterwards say you were talking about other incidents.

Nice talking to you.
:|
 
Justin24 said:


I am not ignoring you and I believe I have answered your questions.


You still haven't qualified how it's an act of war.

You still haven't explained this "proof" of the video.

You still haven't acknowled that ID theft is only 5% illegal immigrants.

You still haven't explained why SS should be denied to them if they were contributing to society.
 
1. It would be an act of war I said earlier, if it was mexican troops smuggling in drugs and mexican government officials knew about it.

2. Those videos on youtube, I am sure come from minute men websites.

3. I will get back to you on.

4. They only contribute by paying sales tax when they purchase something.
 
Justin24 said:
1. It would be an act of war I said earlier, if it was mexican troops smuggling in drugs and mexican government officials knew about it.
That's a lot of "ifs" be careful of conspiracy theories.

Justin24 said:

2. Those videos on youtube, I am sure come from minute men websites.
:banghead: Yes, I know the videos, but what are they PROVING?

Justin24 said:

4. They only contribute by paying sales tax when they purchase something.

The cook in the restaurant contributes to your cheaper burger, the laborer contributes to cheaper produce therefore cheaper restaurants, the bricklayer contributes to cheaper building costs. All of this contributes to your economy.
 
So your in support of this new cheap slave labor.:up:

The Videos prove how we must stand up and tell mexico to get it's act together or we could invade since there invading our country.
 
Justin24 said:
So your in support of this new cheap slave labor.:up:
Did I say that? You're losing your argument when you have to resort to putting words in my mouth.

I understand why they come here, and for you to ignore the contribution they give to our society and acting like they are just sponging off our society is ignorance.

Justin24 said:

The Videos prove how we must stand up and tell mexico to get it's act together or we could invade since there invading our country.

No it doesn't. If you can't tell me HOW it does this, then don't bother, you'll just be wasting all of our time.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:

Did I say that? You're losing your argument when you have to resort to putting words in my mouth.

I understand why they come here, and for you to ignore the contribution they give to our society and acting like they are just sponging off our society is ignorance.



No it doesn't. If you can't tell me HOW it does this, then don't bother, you'll just be wasting all of our time.

You understand the reason they come here is because The mexican government is such a piece of shit that it send the poor here to our country. A month or so ago with the protests in mexico, it showed the people can have enough of the government Bullshit. So why not make a fucking change. Am I going to hear, that they can't that there downtrodden?
:madspit:
 
Justin24 said:


You understand the reason they come here is because The mexican government is such a piece of shit that it send the poor here to our country. A month or so ago with the protests in mexico, it showed the people can have enough of the government Bullshit. So why not make a fucking change. Am I going to hear, that they can't that there downtrodden?
:madspit:

:banghead: Justin, this is my last post unless you can actually address the issue at hand and answer the questions asked of you. I have no problem discussing this with you, but it's useless if you continue ignoring the issues.

Now back to topic. No one here is denying that the Mexican government has problems. But what you are doing, is taking your hatred of the government out on the people.

Put yourself in their shoes. If you were raising kids and couldn't feed them, couldn't afford to become a citizen right away, wouldn't you do your best to feed them? And if your best oppurtunity was in the US, even if it meant doing the shit work no one else wanted to do, wouldn't you do that?

^That's what I understand, I can be empathetic to that. I'm sorry you can't.

Now, once again...HOW do those videos prove anything?
 
:corn:

Justin I wanted to answer back at most of your posts but I was only in page 3 and it's just to much nonsense and ignorance in your behalf about this subject that I'll just laugh it off, besides it's usually the same crap when it comes to this particular subjet

good day
 
Those video prove that there helping the illegal immigrants break the law of our land and when we enforce ours. Vincente Fucking Fox has the oddasity to say we are wrong??

If it was reversed what do you think the mexican government would do?
 
Justin24 said:
Those video prove that there helping the illegal immigrants break the law of our land and when we enforce ours. Vincente Fucking Fox has the oddasity to say we are wrong??



Who's "they"? Is it a government program showing citizens how to cross?
 
Yes. The mexican version of the border patrol also has trucks that transport over illegals, if you saw the last video.
 
I'd be very weary of using the term "invading" when you are talking about immigrants. Most of these people are below the poverty line and can no longer survive in a falling Mexican government.
In all honesty, if we want to continue preaching "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" we should give some leeway to the people eagerly trying to join this country.

There are people willing to die to have a better life here and all of a sudden you are slapping them as "criminals" guilty of "war crimes" (whoa, quotation abuse ;) ). I'm not talking about your video. I'm not talking about hostile Mexicans. (But honestly, can you blame them for being hostile when U.S. citizens have set up militia forts to shoot people trying to come over here?)

Every day I see illegal immigrants trying very hard to get a daily job to support themselves or their family. They aren't moral criminals. And they certainly didn't mean to "invade" as you put it. It's not like they sit around in the thousands and plan how to sneakily cross the border. They are families leaving everything they have, their extended family, their histories, their possessions for the possibility of a better life.
I have illegal immigrants in my stepmother's family. A 92 year old woman who would have died without the health care that is offered in the United States. Would you call her a criminal? Is it so criminal to want life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

Haha: Would you deny for others what you demand for yourself?

I'm just thinking globally. I have no idea what the "crossing the border" laws are or how difficult it is to get here legally. But I'm just saying to cut the non-violent illegal immigrants some slack. They aren't criminals.
 
Justin24 said:
Yes. The mexican version of the border patrol also has trucks that transport over illegals, if you saw the last video.

Well you answered my question, it's not a real government program.
 
IMO, this problem seems to go around in circles and each point on the circle only perpetuates it further. I think the way Justin's arguments flow are a good example of how you can really blame anyone here, it just depends on what perspective you're taking at the time.

What I see is this: Many people in Mexico are poor and because of corruption or bad economics, really have no chance. They can't afford to cross legally, so they do it illegally. You can't get a good job as an illegal, but ironically you're basically forced to in order to BE legal. Like my friend from Central America who was from a poor family and now has the same education I do - he was required to find a full time job that would sign a three year contract in order to maintain a valid visa, while I get off easy because I'm a born citizen and can float between shitty part time jobs or unemployment as I please. So then people start blaming the corporations who either won't give good jobs to legals or will give shitty jobs to illegals because they will take less pay. But it's not always their fault either. Did you know that they are not allowed to fire someone just because they suspect that person is illegal? My dad's employer has thousands of illegals, and everyone knows they are illegal, but they can't prove it because they've got SSNs even thought we all know they aren't valid. They are hard working, reliable people who will work for minimum wage and when required, produce some kind of documentation "proving" they are legal. Companies don't have the resources or the authority to run background checks just because they suspect the documentation is falsified. So then we go one step further and blame the US government for making it so damn hard for people to become legal and get a normal job. But where do we draw the line? Do we just let everyone in? We don't even have enough jobs for our own people, some of whom are just as poor. We're right back where we started. :banghead:
 
Back
Top Bottom