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Old 12-19-2005, 05:25 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen


"It was a shameful act for someone to disclose this important program in a time of war.
Yes, because that's what's shameful about this.
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Old 12-19-2005, 07:00 PM   #77
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on one of those quick vote polls on cnn.com this is the question

Do you agree with President Bush that secret wiretaps are needed to protect the American people?

so far it's

Yes 41%

51192 votes

No

59%

74347 votes

This QuickVote is not scientific and reflects the opinions of only those Internet users who have chosen to participate. The results cannot be assumed to represent the opinions of Internet users in general, nor the public as a whole. The QuickVote sponsor is not responsible for content, functionality or the opinions expressed therein.
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Old 12-19-2005, 07:05 PM   #78
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The point of the previously indicated article was that under Clinton there may have been internal checks. But the premise of echelon doesn't calculate because of the vast quantities of data required, even with the best compression it would still require absurd computational power. Full investigations into where the exceptions to the rules exist should be in order.

Also why is it that one leak that compromises national security is a bad thing but another leak that compromises national security is a good thing?
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Old 12-19-2005, 07:06 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


I could see it if they actually made a formal declaration of war. that is not what they did!
If we're not in a state of war, what would you call the war in Iraq?
Congress approved Bush's invasion of Iraq or whatever you want to call it. The Constitution doesn't require any specific language in regard to a declaration. If Congress supports Bush's invasion we are in fact in a formal state of war.

That being the case, Bush has taken action domestically to allow enforcement agencies to "connect the dots" if you will (i.e. wire taps). This is something that every president since Roosevelt has done in a time of war.
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Old 12-20-2005, 02:48 AM   #80
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Re: Is this enough for impeachment?

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
Is this enough for impeachment?


Yes


Quote:
This will all play out eventually in congressional committees and in the United States Supreme Court. If the Democrats regain control of Congress, there may even be articles of impeachment introduced. Similar abuse of power was part of the impeachment charge brought against Richard Nixon in 1974.

Dec. 19, 2005 - Finally we have a Washington scandal that goes beyond sex, corruption and political intrigue to big issues like security versus liberty and the reasonable bounds of presidential power. President Bush came out swinging on Snoopgate—he made it seem as if those who didn’t agree with him wanted to leave us vulnerable to Al Qaeda—but it will not work. We’re seeing clearly now that Bush thought 9/11 gave him license to act like a dictator, or in his own mind, no doubt, like Abraham Lincoln during the Civil War.

No wonder Bush was so desperate that The New York Times not publish its story on the National Security Agency eavesdropping on American citizens without a warrant, in what lawyers outside the administration say is a clear violation of the 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. I learned this week that on December 6, Bush summoned Times publisher Arthur Sulzberger and executive editor Bill Keller to the Oval Office in a futile attempt to talk them out of running the story. The Times will not comment on the meeting, but one can only imagine the president’s desperation.


Newsweek Article
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Old 12-20-2005, 02:51 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
but another leak that compromises national security is a good thing
that is just flat out bullshit



and the secret torture prisons leak is bullshit, too
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Old 12-20-2005, 05:54 AM   #82
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Re: Re: Is this enough for impeachment?

Quote:
Originally posted by deep

We’re seeing clearly now that Bush thought 9/11 gave him license to act like a dictator
oh-oh... clear words.. have they been deported to Guantanamo yet?
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Old 12-20-2005, 08:11 AM   #83
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Yeah, I think this could finally bring the bastard down.
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Old 12-20-2005, 09:03 AM   #84
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I will be calling my Senators and Rep today to express my outrage and shock at this (yes, it does actually still have the power to shock me).

Funny, some of my friends who are more liberal that I am were saying since about 9/12/01 that this would get progressively worse and made comparisons to McCarthy. I told them they were overreacting.

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Old 12-20-2005, 09:23 AM   #85
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PETA? Poverty groups? What the? I wonder if they investigated the One Campaign and/or DATA..

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/20/po...gewanted=print

WASHINGTON, Dec. 19 - Counterterrorism agents at the Federal Bureau of Investigation have conducted numerous surveillance and intelligence-gathering operations that involved, at least indirectly, groups active in causes as diverse as the environment, animal cruelty and poverty relief, newly disclosed agency records show.

F.B.I. officials said Monday that their investigators had no interest in monitoring political or social activities and that any investigations that touched on advocacy groups were driven by evidence of criminal or violent activity at public protests and in other settings.

After the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, John Ashcroft, who was then attorney general, loosened restrictions on the F.B.I.'s investigative powers, giving the bureau greater ability to visit and monitor Web sites, mosques and other public entities in developing terrorism leads. The bureau has used that authority to investigate not only groups with suspected ties to foreign terrorists, but also protest groups suspected of having links to violent or disruptive activities.

But the documents, coming after the Bush administration's confirmation that President Bush had authorized some spying without warrants in fighting terrorism, prompted charges from civil rights advocates that the government had improperly blurred the line between terrorism and acts of civil disobedience and lawful protest.

One F.B.I. document indicates that agents in Indianapolis planned to conduct surveillance as part of a "Vegan Community Project." Another document talks of the Catholic Workers group's "semi-communistic ideology." A third indicates the bureau's interest in determining the location of a protest over llama fur planned by People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals.
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Old 12-20-2005, 09:27 AM   #86
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This whole issue makes one wonder just who he was having wiretapped. It he could legally have anyone taped through FISA, even after the fact, why would he not do so. It is arrogance or is it that he was wiretapping people he knew he wouldn't get clearance for certainly they would give clearance for suspected terrorists. Maybe the DNC, journalists, political opponents? Shades of Nixon methinks.
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Old 12-20-2005, 11:09 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sherry Darling
I will be calling my Senators and Rep today to express my outrage and shock at this (yes, it does actually still have the power to shock me).

Funny, some of my friends who are more liberal that I am were saying since about 9/12/01 that this would get progressively worse and made comparisons to McCarthy. I told them they were overreacting.

Whose district are you in? Moran?

Sen. Warner is hopefully pretty pissed about this but I bet Allen is sucking up to Bush.
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Old 12-20-2005, 11:12 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen


One F.B.I. document indicates that agents in Indianapolis planned to conduct surveillance as part of a "Vegan Community Project." Another document talks of the Catholic Workers group's "semi-communistic ideology." A third indicates the bureau's interest in determining the location of a protest over llama fur planned by People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals.
If you don't live well within the status quo, if you think outside the box, if you question anything you are the enemy.
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Old 12-20-2005, 11:20 AM   #89
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I bet they must monitor FYM like crazy...............
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Old 12-20-2005, 11:30 AM   #90
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This letter from Rockelfeller blows away the idea that Democratic Senate Leaders endorsed this illegal policy. He was forbidden from talking about this issue but man was he smart to keep a copy.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/docs/rock-cheney1.html



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