Is There Absolute Truth? - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 04-16-2004, 05:41 PM   #1
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 05:59 PM
Is There Absolute Truth?

We've danced around the question in another thread, however...


Does truth apply to all people at all times, or is everything relative?
__________________

__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 04-16-2004, 05:56 PM   #2
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,692
Local Time: 07:59 PM
I believe there is, but that humans will never fully know it while living on Earth. We may get close, but our feeble minds will never fully understand.
__________________

__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 04-16-2004, 06:08 PM   #3
Refugee
 
stammer476's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,058
Local Time: 10:59 AM
Correct me if I'm being over-simplistic, but by logical definition, absolute truth has to exist. There are only two possibilities:

1.) Absolute Truth does exist.

OR

1.) Absolute Truth does not exist.
2.) The absolute statement that "absolute truth does not exist" is in itself an absolute truth.
3.) Absolute Truth does exist.

That's what I never understood about relativism. It only works if it breaks its own rules.
__________________
stammer476 is offline  
Old 04-16-2004, 07:11 PM   #4
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,557
Local Time: 08:59 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by stammer476
Correct me if I'm being over-simplistic, but by logical definition, absolute truth has to exist. There are only two possibilities:

1.) Absolute Truth does exist.

OR

1.) Absolute Truth does not exist.
2.) The absolute statement that "absolute truth does not exist" is in itself an absolute truth.
3.) Absolute Truth does exist.

That's what I never understood about relativism. It only works if it breaks its own rules.
Did you make that up? If so,

I agree, there IS an absolute truth (maybe more than one?), but what exactly that truth is is a different issue...
__________________
Liesje is offline  
Old 04-16-2004, 07:52 PM   #5
Acrobat
 
Ft. Worth Frog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Fort Worth
Posts: 390
Local Time: 08:59 PM
I have to say that there is absolute truth. A fellow grad student of mine has labeled themself a "post modernist" and is afraid to say something is better or worse than something else. However, I would say that that is dangerous because then one can rationalize anything from genocide and racism to gulags and thievery. If everything is relative, then what standard do we hold others to?
__________________
Ft. Worth Frog is offline  
Old 04-16-2004, 08:34 PM   #6
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 01:59 AM
I think there is, but I don't want to say I know what it is. Gosh, I have to think about this! I know I'm on record as saying I'm post-modernist and alot of things are theories. Not *everything* in the universe, but social-science stuff like (partisan) political issues are theoretical. Things of God and morality are not. That being said I don't know these truths myself. There are all sorts of dangers and pitfalls in both asserting something as truth and asserting "everything is relative". You've got a point Ft. Worth with racism and gulags and the Holocaust and every other damn thing being "OK" if everything's relative. So it's really hard to say.
__________________
verte76 is offline  
Old 04-19-2004, 03:30 AM   #7
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Saracene's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Melbourne, Australia, some time after tea
Posts: 6,325
Local Time: 01:59 AM
Well, we inevitably end up judging others by the standards prevalent in our society at a specific day and time. Which change over the time. So I don't really see how absolute truth can exist when IMO the only place truth exists is inside the human heads.
__________________
Saracene is offline  
Old 04-19-2004, 08:52 AM   #8
Acrobat
 
Ft. Worth Frog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Fort Worth
Posts: 390
Local Time: 08:59 PM
So if society's standards say racism is ok then we should not judge them by our standards? If that is the case, then why have so many worked to eradicate it?
__________________
Ft. Worth Frog is offline  
Old 04-19-2004, 10:41 AM   #9
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Saracene's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Melbourne, Australia, some time after tea
Posts: 6,325
Local Time: 01:59 AM
No, I'm not going to say that I think racism is alright if it happens somewhere else to someone else. Racism may be justified in some societies, and I can understand and take into account all the historical and cultural backgrounds that shaped this attitude, and even admit that taking these into account the majority of the people probably couldn't have been any other way. I still think it's bloody awful and a shame to all humanity.

All I'm saying is, when I express a view that racism is wrong, I don't assume that I'm asserting some absolute truth written in the skies somewhere, that existed for millennia before we finally found it.
__________________
Saracene is offline  
Old 04-19-2004, 11:28 AM   #10
Offishul Kitteh Doctor
Forum Moderator
 
bonosloveslave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Taking care of kitties
Posts: 9,655
Local Time: 08:59 PM
Absolutely
__________________
bonosloveslave [at] interference.com
bonosloveslave is offline  
Old 04-19-2004, 08:07 PM   #11
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 08:59 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by stammer476
1.) Absolute Truth does not exist.
2.) The absolute statement that "absolute truth does not exist" is in itself an absolute truth.
3.) Absolute Truth does exist.

That's what I never understood about relativism. It only works if it breaks its own rules.
Cute, but it doesn't hold up. The concept of "absolute Truth" is a metanarrative--stories employed to legitimate the mechanisms of social control. Thus, for example, when parents tell their children, "We only want to help you avoid our mistakes," they are constructing a metanarrative that justifies the imposition of rules of conduct they are unwilling to follow themselves. The rejection of metanarratives and all "Truth" is a prominent hallmark of postmodern philosophy.

In postmodernism, any concept of "Truth" is a man-made interpretation, meaning that it really isn't true at all. Notice the capital "T." The concept of "truth," as in tangible facts ("the sky is blue," "people breathe oxygen," etc.) is not in question. It is when we start talking in "Truth" that none of it can be proven beyond one's opinion. "'Absolute Truth' does not exist" is not a metanarrative, because it is not an imposition of social control; rather, it is a rejection of it. With that, however, we should stop living in such absolutes. Sure, we live by some "Truths" governed by the science of "truths." That's reality.

I really hate this topic, because of its religious connotation. All religion is a "Truth," meaning that none of it can be proven. Thus, what this topic is really about is whether you can stand up and say that "I'm right" and "You're wrong." Well, guess what, folks? Everyone who belongs to the various religions and philosophies of the world thinks they're right and everyone else is wrong. Join the club. And no one can prove that their "Truth" is any better than anyone else's.

"Truth" = intangible; subjective interpretations--thus, isn't really a truth
"truth" = tangible; objective existence

Hopefully, what I wrote isn't too confusing...

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 04-19-2004, 08:19 PM   #12
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 08:59 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Ft. Worth Frog
So if society's standards say racism is ok then we should not judge them by our standards? If that is the case, then why have so many worked to eradicate it?
Our plight against racism is predicated on a "Truth," which isn't necessarily a bad thing at all. While I operate on a "Truth" myself--"love one another"--I cannot say with "absolute" certainty that that command is any more "true" than any other.

That is, of course, all predicated on faith, none of which is universal.

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 04-20-2004, 02:25 PM   #13
Refugee
 
stammer476's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,058
Local Time: 10:59 AM
Quote:
"'Absolute Truth' does not exist" is not a metanarrative, because it is not an imposition of social control; rather, it is a rejection of it.
I'm still not understanding why relativism isn't breaking its own rules here. If postmodernism is the rejection of social control, that IS an social control in itself. Anarchy is still a form of government, still a way of telling people what to do, the message is simply that you can do whatever you want to do.

My point is, relativism needs to listen to itself. If no truth is better than anyone else's, then relativism/postmodernism has no say over anyone else's worldview, either. I can simply reject relativism by its own statement, "Relativism may be true for you, but not for me."

It just seems to me that for relativism to work, it has to be a universally accepted philosophy, for it encompasses all truth and all opinion. Thus, anyone who rejects relativism, by definition, must be wrong. But with relativism, no one can be wrong, and thus the cycle goes on . . .
__________________
stammer476 is offline  
Old 04-20-2004, 03:46 PM   #14
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,557
Local Time: 08:59 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Saracene
Well, we inevitably end up judging others by the standards prevalent in our society at a specific day and time. Which change over the time. So I don't really see how absolute truth can exist when IMO the only place truth exists is inside the human heads.
What if one believes in a Truth greater than oneself/humankind? I believe in a Truth that transcends humanity (God and His truths, if you will).

I guess I can see where there is no absolute truth if one doesn't believe in a God that transcends time, humanity, creation, society, etc.
__________________

__________________
Liesje is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:59 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com