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Old 04-28-2004, 10:00 AM   #16
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
To believe that some people cannot accept democracy is an inherently racist position. It sickens me that people wan't to create a two tier human rights system where the western nations may sit on top and preach moral relativism of why arabs/africans/asians cannot accept democratic principles. Democracy is not forced upon people. it is the will of the people. What do people want?, peace and freedom. What do people hate? War, Famine, Opression. Sometimes to ensure a just peace wars must be fought, to defeat tyranny and fight to protect a democracy is not forcing democracy upon people, it is a balancing act where you must keep a the democratic system from falling into despotism or chaos. Democracy is the ONLY system that grants people true freedom and to it takes a total clot who does not know how much people have and continue to suffer in the pursuit of it to say that democracy is not for everyone. Democracy is one of the greatest concepts that western civilization adopted and I would say one of the greatest in the history of the world.

Liberal Democracy means freedom of speech, freedom to earn wealth, freedom to worship and freedom to live without threat of violence. These are not simple western ideals, they are universal rights. The sooner we all accept mankind is at a point where our survival is dependent on mutual respect the sooner we may create a better world for all of us.
Whoa, where have you been? Where is your evidence that everyone wants democracy?

No one here is saying they want a two tier system, that's crap.

Democracy is not perfect, it's not the cure to all evils.

Have you seen what's going on today, there are people working from within the realm of democracies that are trying their hardest to take away the things that make democracy work.
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Old 04-28-2004, 06:14 PM   #17
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I think that into this equation of 'democracy', one must be aware of whether or not said 'human rights' which constitute democracy are universal or culturally prescribed and one must not fall into a situation where one subjects their ethnocentric views whether forcefully or pasively onto another entity.........
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Old 04-28-2004, 09:32 PM   #18
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Originally posted by TylerDurden


One day people will have to accept that 'democracy' won't work everywhere, and stands less chance of working when forced.
Democracy stands no chance of working when leaders as ruthless and powerful as Saddam are in control.
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Old 04-28-2004, 09:40 PM   #19
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Whoa, where have you been? Where is your evidence that everyone wants democracy?

No one here is saying they want a two tier system, that's crap.

Democracy is not perfect, it's not the cure to all evils.

Have you seen what's going on today, there are people working from within the realm of democracies that are trying their hardest to take away the things that make democracy work.
Democracy is not a cure all for everything, but countries that are democracy's tend to value human rights more and are less likely to engage in unprovoked war against their neighbors than Non-Democratic countries.

Most of the World is moving toward capitalist based global economic system in which all countries are governed by democratic governments. The countries with the highest standards of living today have these economic and political systems which is why most of the world wants to develop along those lines. Bin Ladin and Al Quada of course represent the strongest resistence to this new world and would of course like to take the entire Planet back to the way 7th century Arabia was.
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Old 04-28-2004, 10:19 PM   #20
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Originally posted by STING2


Democracy is not a cure all for everything, but countries that are democracy's tend to value human rights more and are less likely to engage in unprovoked war against their neighbors than Non-Democratic countries.
Ironic given the current situation of the world.
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Old 04-29-2004, 01:50 AM   #21
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

Ironic given the current situation of the world.
Really? Here are the 15 Conflicts around the world that are or could be considered a "War".

Columbia "Insurgencies"
Congo "Congo War"
India "Assam"
India "Kashmir"
Indonesia "Aceh"
Israel "Al-Agsa Intifada"
Ivory Coast "Civil War"
Liberia "Civil War"
Nepal "Maoist Insurgency"
Russia "Chechen Uprising"
Sri Lanka "Tamil Uprising"
Sudan "Second Civil War"
Uganda "Civil Conflict"
United States "Afghanistan-Insurgents"
United States "Iraq-Insurgents"


How many of these "War's" involve two or more democratic states fighting each other? How many of these "War's" were started through the unprovoked action by a democratic State?
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Old 04-29-2004, 05:55 AM   #22
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I think you are misunderstanding what I wrote. I never said anything about democracy as being 'bad'. Yes, in a perfect world, the whole world would be democratic. Yes, everyone wants freedom, stability etc etc. Yes, democracy is the best form of government for this. What I mean is, you may be too used to 'our' democracies. Look at our (basicaly) 2 party systems. One leans a little left, one leans a little right, one usually has an image of supporting the wealthy, one the working class etc etc. Same stuff all around the 'west'. We don't have tribal lines that would be followed. We don't have religious lines that would be followed. We don't have racial lines that would be followed. See what I'm getting at? You could throw 'democracy' into many countries, leave it to them, and it will still turn to chaos. That's not racist. Thats the way the world is. Replace 'Republican' and 'Democrat' with two racial groups, two religious groups or two tribal groups who have a long history of fighting. Think it will work out nicely with long debates about tiny % points on taxes?!?
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Old 04-29-2004, 11:44 PM   #23
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Originally posted by TylerDurden
I think you are misunderstanding what I wrote. I never said anything about democracy as being 'bad'. Yes, in a perfect world, the whole world would be democratic. Yes, everyone wants freedom, stability etc etc. Yes, democracy is the best form of government for this. What I mean is, you may be too used to 'our' democracies. Look at our (basicaly) 2 party systems. One leans a little left, one leans a little right, one usually has an image of supporting the wealthy, one the working class etc etc. Same stuff all around the 'west'. We don't have tribal lines that would be followed. We don't have religious lines that would be followed. We don't have racial lines that would be followed. See what I'm getting at? You could throw 'democracy' into many countries, leave it to them, and it will still turn to chaos. That's not racist. Thats the way the world is. Replace 'Republican' and 'Democrat' with two racial groups, two religious groups or two tribal groups who have a long history of fighting. Think it will work out nicely with long debates about tiny % points on taxes?!?
Well, I think you oversimplify the two party system in the USA and other places. There are all kinds of groups that link themselves to different parties for their own reasons. People are always accusing the Republicans of being to alligned with the "Religious right".

More to the point, the United States has experienced plenty of political upheaval in its history and democracy continued to work. The USA had century's of racism a civil war, just to name a few things.

In fact, the United States clearly shows that people from a wide variety of backgrounds and beliefs can come together to form a stable government that works.

Is South Africa "Chaos" at the moment? Is Eastern Europe and the Former Soviet Union "Chaos" at the moment?

Democracy takes years to develop where it has yet to exist before, but racial, religious, and other differences are definitely not "show stoppers" when it comes to developing democracy. It can make the task more difficult and longer, but eventually, provided the right support, it will work.
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Old 04-30-2004, 12:04 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Democracy takes years to develop where it has yet to exist before, but racial, religious, and other differences are definitely not "show stoppers" when it comes to developing democracy. It can make the task more difficult and longer, but eventually, provided the right support, it will work.
Yeah, but what if these racial, religious and other cultural differences are completely incompatible with the very idea of democracy, and major cultural overhauls are required to get anywhere near it? And what if, further more, people are extremely unwilling to let any of these differences go, if they feel that they are indivisible from their cultural identity? Years to develop? Centuries to develop, more likely.

Regarding former Soviet Union, and Russia particularly, it may not be a war-torn chaos, but it's not particularly stable either and certainly not a working democracy even if it may wear democracy mask.
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Old 04-30-2004, 07:41 AM   #25
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Originally posted by STING2


Well, I think you oversimplify the two party system in the USA and other places. There are all kinds of groups that link themselves to different parties for their own reasons. People are always accusing the Republicans of being to alligned with the "Religious right".

More to the point, the United States has experienced plenty of political upheaval in its history and democracy continued to work. The USA had century's of racism a civil war, just to name a few things.

In fact, the United States clearly shows that people from a wide variety of backgrounds and beliefs can come together to form a stable government that works.

Is South Africa "Chaos" at the moment? Is Eastern Europe and the Former Soviet Union "Chaos" at the moment?

Democracy takes years to develop where it has yet to exist before, but racial, religious, and other differences are definitely not "show stoppers" when it comes to developing democracy. It can make the task more difficult and longer, but eventually, provided the right support, it will work.
Democracy works when countries are economicaly stable and the people are happy to spend their time arguing over exposed breasts on national tv, taxes, presidential military service etc and when even 'big' issues like abortion, gay marriage and foreign policy, for most, are not interesting. We are comfortable. We choose between 2 parties who either agree with us on these tiny to large issues, or don't. Zoom out and both sides will look similar. They're not extreme parties. It's just the details.

Head down to Africa (not South Africa, which despite it's issues is still pretty 'western') and pick a country that ranks somewhere at the bottom of the world in wealth. A country dominated by two racial/tribal groups. One has power currently and rules over the other (think of Iraq under Saddam). Hand them democracy. What lines do you think the two parties will take? What do you think the people will argue over policiticaly? Think about Iraq, what if the political parties were the Shi'ite Party, Sunni Party and Kurd Party. Think they'll spend forever debating over the details of health care? Not suggesting that's the way Iraq will go, just showing that some countries have very clear dividing lines that have nothing to do with where you stand on social security, health care and abortion, and even under democracy they'll still divide under those lines. It won't be truly democracy, just another fight for power.

The countries need the economic stability, the comfort, or 'happiness' first.

So, I agree with the earlier post about trade bringing it on. Fair trade. Bring the countries at the bottom up. Democracy will come in time.
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Old 04-30-2004, 10:35 PM   #26
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Interesting you pick South Africa. Have you been recently?

Johannesburg is a MESS. There are something like 2 million people living in shanty towns who moved in after Mandela was initially elected, who have no access to clean drinking water, proper electricity, education, healthcare, infrastructure, and so on. The crime rate has skyrocketed. If you have been there recently you will know of the "red light rule" on the road - that is, violent crime there is so bad that if you are standing at a red light (in your car) and you see "suspicious activity" or people milling about, you are by law permitted to run the red in order to escape from being a victim or robbery or carjacking. You tell me if this is not some kind of chaos. Furthermore, as is tradition there, when you go and park your car at a parking lot, there will be people there whom you will pay in order to "watch" your car - a desirable thing if you want your tires to be there upon return. It's mostly an easy way to make money, but you can also elect not to pay and gamble with the outcome.
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Old 05-01-2004, 02:11 PM   #27
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Sting has it almost right. I've read studies about this precise question for my classes, and the stats show that demoncracies tend not to go to war *against eachother*. All bets are off about democracies going to war with nondemocracies, or as he points out, non-democracies warring with eachother.



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