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Old 10-18-2006, 05:08 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally posted by Snowlock


I don't think it's quite the same; the heavy metal/rock messages versus Rap. The rock/metal argument wasn't about a thug lifestyle. It didn't glorify felonies
No, it was just considered satanic...

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Originally posted by Snowlock

The hopeless lifestyle/economic system is a cop out, I think. For every one person that resorts to a criminal lifestyle because of their station/positon in life, there's probably 10k that don't. It's not like these people don't have a choice. There are jobs out there; even if it's Mcdonalds. They don't have to sell drugs or steal.
Spoken like a true privelaged kid.
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Old 10-18-2006, 05:09 PM   #92
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Are you sure?
Please...
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Old 10-18-2006, 05:11 PM   #93
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Originally posted by Snowlock


The chains, the cars, the girls, the houses, the entourages I'm not sure what you're seeing, but it seems the same to me. Now the message of the songs themselves, I agree they're different; but that's not what I mean by image.
I think the reason I disagree with this are none of the hiphop artists I listen to have the chains, entourages, etc. But, that perhaps isn't to say that there aren't hip hop artists at all that don't carry that image. That would be generalizing on my part, and I'm not trying to do that.

But when I think of hip hop I am thinking of solely the people I listen to, so that's why I didn't agree with the image thing.

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Sorry about the comment, but you said I was straying into dangerous territory; struck me as funny given the context.
Ah okay, I didn't quite make that connection at first. No worries.
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Old 10-18-2006, 05:23 PM   #94
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Spoken like a true privelaged kid.
Spoken like someone who has absoutely no idea what they're talking about. As usual.
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Old 10-18-2006, 05:26 PM   #95
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i think Dread is right on with rap music being the symptom of larger social malaise.

i don't think the US has the largest number of homicides per capital in the world -- i think Colombia and/or Jamaica are more, for starters. also South Africa.

but what is interesting is that, i believe, the US is actually relatively safe when it comes to minor crimes -- burglaries, robberies -- but a deadlier place when it comes to assault, precisely because of the availability of guns.

as for rap music ... some of it is unhealthy and destructive, but the target audience for that stuff isn't for poor black kids, it's for suburban white kids who are being asked to buy into a mythology about urban black masculinity. true, this might set up a grotesque expectation for black kids, but it's white suburban dollars that fuel the industry.
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Old 10-18-2006, 05:33 PM   #96
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Justin, a year ago I would've completely disagreed with you that rap music can actually cause kids to act more violently. Then I took several psychology courses and one in particular that focused on studies that do prove causation of more violent behavior from children who watch violent TV shows. The studies first assumed that certain kids were already predisposed to watching violent shows because their social groups permitted this. However, further studies that isolated these factors and used children of ALL races and economic classes still showed a causal link between watching violence and acting more violent.

I'm still astounded by this as it is so rare that studies can actually determine causation instead of just correlation. (Fortunately, we then examined how additional studied showed that children exposed to pro-social and altruistic themes on TV acted more pro-socially and that this causation was MORE influential than watching violence causing them to behave violently.)

I'm not sure how much music that describes or condones violence is like TV shows that do, but if children absorb the messages the same way, based on these studied, you may be on to something.

I don't have any experience with rap music - I only listen to a few songs - and while I did grow up in the worst neighborhood in our city during several years of gang war, I wasn't personally subjected to the violence or hardship. So for me personally, I'd agree with Dreadsox in that depending on my current situation or mood, I'm more predisposed to listen to certain genres of music or themes within the music, rather than the music causing my moods and directly influencing my actions.
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Old 10-18-2006, 05:35 PM   #97
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Spoken like someone who has absoutely no idea what they're talking about. As usual.
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Old 10-18-2006, 05:42 PM   #98
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Originally posted by Irvine511
as for rap music ... some of it is unhealthy and destructive, but the target audience for that stuff isn't for poor black kids, it's for suburban white kids who are being asked to buy into a mythology about urban black masculinity. true, this might set up a grotesque expectation for black kids, but it's white suburban dollars that fuel the industry.
Hmm, interesting! Now that I think about it, who has the money to keep up with the latest CDs, attend these concerts, get the iPod video...or even have the internet access for that matter?

I certainly didn't when I was growing up.
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Old 10-18-2006, 05:44 PM   #99
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But times have changed and Materialistic stuff matter, so ever the poor children have the latest fashion trends, Rap albums, ipods or psp's, stunna shades or grills.
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Old 10-18-2006, 06:02 PM   #100
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Originally posted by redhotswami


Hmm, interesting! Now that I think about it, who has the money to keep up with the latest CDs, attend these concerts, get the iPod video...or even have the internet access for that matter?

I certainly didn't when I was growing up.


i hope this doesn't come across as terribly offensive, but i think that some rap is little more than minstrelsy, give the white people what they think they want, and get paid doing it.

and i fully agree about your distinction between different artists, certainly Kanye.

i can't think of a current rock song that's as blisteringly self-critical and nuanced as Diamonds From Sierra Leone:

[q]Good Morning, this ain't Vietnam still
People lose hands, legs, arms for real
Little was known of Sierra Leone
And how it connect to the diamonds we own
When I speak of Diamonds in this song
I ain't talkin bout the ones that be glown
I'm talkin bout Rocafella, my home, my chain
These ain't conflict diamonds,is they Jacob? don't lie to me mayne
See, a part of me sayin' keep shinin',
How? when I know of the blood diamonds
Though it's thousands of miles away
Sierra Leone connect to what we go through today
Over here, its a drug trade, we die from drugs
Over there, they die from what we buy from drugs
The diamonds, the chains, the bracelets, the charmses
I thought my Jesus Piece was so harmless
'til I seen a picture of a shorty armless
And here's the conflict
It's in a black person's soul to rock that gold
Spend ya whole life tryna get that ice
On a polar rugby it look so nice
How could somethin' so wrong make me feel so right, right?
'fore I beat myself up like Ike
You could still throw ya Rocafella diamond tonight,[/q]
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Old 10-18-2006, 06:16 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

i hope this doesn't come across as terribly offensive, but i think that some rap is little more than minstrelsy, give the white people what they think they want, and get paid doing it.
hmm, I think I might agree with that too. There are quite a few "caricatures" out there, if you will, who I'd argue were just created by the industry to mold into the stereotype and make more money.
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Old 10-18-2006, 06:34 PM   #102
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[Q]I don't think it's quite the same; the heavy metal/rock messages versus Rap. The rock/metal argument wasn't about a thug lifestyle. It didn't glorify felonies[/Q]

they go hand in hand depending on the environment the child is coming from.

[Q]American Academy of Pediatrics' Committee on Communications (1989) recommends that "research concerning the impact rock music has on the behavior of adolescents and preadolescents be developed and supported."

This study was designed to test two hypotheses. The first states that heavy metal and rap listeners will be in more adolescent turmoil than will non-heavy metal and non-rap listeners. (Adolescent turmoil is defined to include a history of more peer, school, substance abuse, sexual activity, legal, home behavior, and psychiatric problems, and less traditional religious affiliation.) The second hypothesis is that listening to heavy metal or rap music is just another sign of adolescent turmoil. Thus, it will be found that heavy metal and rap listeners will have some precipitating factors in their lives other than their choice of music which could account for the increased turmoil. These other factors may have to do with demographics, a more disturbed family history (e.g., more parental substance abuse, marital unhappiness, parental arrests), or difficulties in elementary school (e.g., below average grades, history of being suspended or expelled, peer problems).

.............

This combination resulted in a total of 48 subjects (26 heavy metal, 22 rap). The 39 subjects remaining in the "other" group listed a wide variety of music choices with no substantial number listing any one type. The mean age in the heavy metal/rap (HM/R) group was 14.7 (range 13-18), with 14.6 the mean in the Other group (range 12-18) (p [is greater than] .05). When examined individually, both the heavy metal and the rap groups were found to be composed mostly of males (heavy metal, 65%; rap, 64%). Adding the two groups together resulted in significantly more males (p = .01) in the HM/R group (64% male, 36% female), than in the Other group (35% male, 65% female). When combined, there were no statistically significant racial differences, with the HM/R group being composed of 72% Caucasian, 4% Asian, 8% black, 8% Hispanic, and 6% other; and the Other group 55% Caucasian, 18% Asian, 8% black, 5% Hispanic, and 13% other. (Prior to combination, the rap group was composed of 54% Caucasian, 4% Asian, 18% black, 14% Hispanic, and 9% other; and the heavy metal group 88% Caucasian, 4% Asian, 0% black, 4% Hispanic, and 4% other.)

When the other variables were compared, many more significant factors appeared. On the adolescent questionnaire there were six significant (p [is less than or equal to] .05) variables. Five of these variables showed more turmoil in the HM/R group: Current grades below average (46% HM/R, 24% Other), suspended or expelled from junior or high school (44% HM/R, 23% Other), illicit drug use (23% HM/R, 8% Other), sexually active (40% HM/R, 18% Other), and counseling for drugs/alcohol (38% HM/R, 15% Other). (There were no differences in the total number of subjects in counseling, just the reason listed for the counseling.) The only significant variable for the Other group was also related to the reason for counseling; 68% of the Other group listed family problems as compared to 45% of the HM/R group.

......

CONCLUSIONS

One of the difficulties with this study is that participation was based on hospital or clinic attendance; thus the sample is prone to be in more turmoil. Yet one of the major points of the study is that there is less association of heavy metal and rap music with adolescent turmoil than was previously suspected and, if anything, one would expect this population to be more influenced by the negative messages of this type of music. Another one of the limits of the study is that it is based on self-report. As a check on reliability, both parents and adolescents were asked the same questions about the adolescents' current functioning. Although there is some variation in the exact type of difficulties the adolescents were reported to be experiencing, there is a surprising and reassuring consistency between the two sources. (However, when the parents were asked about themselves, there may have been more hesitancy to disclose information.)

Upon initial evaluation there appears to be a strong validation of the first hypothesis. Both the adolescents and their parents report significantly more turmoil in the lives of the adolescents who listen to heavy metal and rap. However, when the second hypothesis is explored, these findings are changed substantially. The majority of the heavy metal and rap listeners, as suspected from the study by Waas (1988-89), turned out to be male. When the groups are balanced, much of the turmoil associated with the heavy metal and rap listeners disappears, suggesting that gender plays an important role in these findings.

What we may be seeing in the unbalanced heavy metal and rap groups are merely behaviors associated with being an adolescent male. Aggressive and destructive behaviors are more common in boys (Gabel & Schindledecker, 1991), which can account for the increased prevalence of the unbalanced HM/R group being suspended, expelled, or arrested. Adolescent boys also tend to be more sexually active than are girls (Gordon & Gilgun, 1987) and, although the predominance of male drug and alcohol abuse is disappearing (Wechsler & McFadden, 1976), the majority of males seems to be responsible for the reports of their increased use as well. Finally, the only significant variable for the Other group also disappears when the groups are balanced. Of the adolescents in counseling, more in the Other group stated that it was for family problems. Since there was a majority of females in the unbalanced Other group, this may suggest that adolescent girls seek counseling more for family problems, or it may merely be that fewer of them checked drugs and alcohol or school problems as their reason for counseling.

The only significant differences still present after the groups are balanced are related to school. Both the parents and the adolescents agree that the heavy metal and rap listeners have below average current grades. The argument could be made that heavy metal and rap music are somehow contributing to the poor grades; but the data show that these adolescents have a history of school problems at the elementary level, before many of them began listening to heavy metal and rap.

Similar to the findings by Roe (1987), this study suggests that early poor academic achievement may draw adolescents to these types of music. School is the major task of the grade school child. Erickson (1963) refers to it as the period of "Industry vs. Inferiority." If children cannot perform well academically, they end up feeling discouraged and inferior. As adolescence approaches they do not identify with their role as student, and will grasp at other ways to fit in and build their self-esteem. One of the things they seem to grasp at is heavy metal and rap music because these types of music offer them several things. They supply them with an identity, complete with clothes and hairstyle. They also offer a peer group that has few requirements for entry. They do not need to be scholars or athletes, or even have musical talent. Finally, the image of the music gives these adolescents a sense of power, something they may not have anywhere else in their lives.

[/Q]
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m..._16423324/pg_5
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Old 10-18-2006, 07:20 PM   #103
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I'm no expert on all rap music, but I know one thing for sure-if I had kids, they wouldn't be allowed to listen to it when I was around (not unless I listened to it and read the lyrics first). The main reason would be the image of women and sex and relationships that some rap music portrays. I would explain to them why I felt it was an unhealthy image and what I feel is healthy. I think those images are imprinted in the tween/teen years, and it's a parent's job to make sure it is as healthy as possible in the kids' minds. That way when they're older, hopefully they can see certain lyrics for what they are and will choose other music. If not, well hopefully they have a strong foundation from parents and the music won't matter as much.

Elvis was so tame compared to what is going on now, as far as I know he never called women bitches and hos or talked about violence against them and killing them. Obviously of course our culture was completely different back then as well, it wasn't acceptable to treat women in a certain way or to say certain things publicly about them. Even if we don't want to censor music (and I don't), I think it is well worth examining the impact it may have.

If teenagers can beat homeless people because they are emulating videos, well who knows..obviously parents should always be the great equalizer.
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Old 10-18-2006, 08:45 PM   #104
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Awesome article from this morning's New York Times, about the current state of hip-hop, which completely debunks the premise of this thread.

Great thread, though, btw. Anything that gets this many views/responses is automatically good.


-----
October 19, 2006
2006 Emerges as the Year That Rap Thought Locally
By KELEFA SANNEH

If you want to understand hip-hop in 2006, you should acquaint yourself with Torrence Hatch, a 23-year-old fellow from Baton Rouge, La., known professionally as Lil Boosie. He has got the five things every rapper needs: a memorable voice, a bad attitude, an infectious love of trash talk, a regional reputation and a record deal. And this Tuesday he will make his major-label solo debut with “Bad Azz” (Trill/Aslyum/Warner).

Make no mistake, Lil Boosie is hardly the rapper of the year. But you might say this has been a year defined by rappers like him, neighborhood guys with modest dreams. Forget about dreams of multiplatinum success. If Lil Boosie’s catchy current single, “Zoom,” becomes a nationwide hip-hop hit, then maybe he can sell a few hundred thousand CD’s. His label would be happy with that. Or should be.

For reasons best explained by entertainment lawyers, the new album doesn’t include Lil Boosie’s underground summer hit, “Do tha Ratchet.” That track was a collaboration with a couple of Shreveport rappers, released on an independent CD, and it inspired a dance move that spread through local clubs and through one notably unlocal Web site: YouTube, where the usual assortment of pajama’d teenagers and dressed-up dandies can be seen doing their own Ratchets. This is how you measure hip-hop stardom now: not through big-budget videos but through no-budget videos.

Was it only a few years ago that rappers routinely bought — which is to say, dreamed about buying — private jets and expensive yachts? Some big-name rappers, including Jay-Z and the Game, are scheduled to release albums in the coming months, but so far the year’s top rappers seem less like globe-trotting celebrities and more like neighborhood guys. T. I.’s “King,” the year’s best hip-hop CD so far, is also the only 2006 rap CD that has sold over a million copies; it’s a tough, single-minded disc that wasn’t designed to woo pop fans, and it doesn’t sound too different from one of his mixtapes. Yung Joc and Chamillionaire both scored big hits (“It’s Goin’ Down” and “Ridin’,” respectively), but neither seems like an A-list star. And despite months of publicity and controversy, Busta Rhymes’s New York-centric recent album, “The Big Bang,” has sold barely half a million copies; the same is true of Rick Ross’s heavily promoted major-label debut, “Port of Miami.”

Unless you’re a record executive, or a yacht salesman, this state of affairs — an era in which rappers think locally and sometimes sell that way, too — is nothing to complain about. It’s easier than ever for fans to learn about regional scenes, from the Bay Area’s space-age hyphy movement to the rough beats and rhymes of Baltimore. The Internet has made it easier to get mixtapes, too, and no 2006 hip-hop collection is complete without “Dedication 2,” by the New Orleans rapper Lil Wayne, or “I Told U So,” by the Memphis rapper Yo Gotti. (Both were compiled by DJ Drama, and both are available at mixunit.com.)

In short, hip-hop feels both more local and more accessible, and nothing captures that combination like the continuing popularity of hip-hop dances. From “It’s Goin’ Down” to “Chicken Noodle Soup,” from “Do It to It” to “Walk It Out,” many of this year’s club hits have arrived along with simple (provided you’re a well-coordinated teenager), loose-limbed steps; they filter up from clubs to YouTube, and then back down into bedrooms.

“Do tha Ratchet” never got as big as the Harlem-bred hit “Chicken Noodle Soup,” but the song — along with its arm-flapping dance — spread surprisingly quickly, especially considering its provenance. The song was released by Lava House, a label run by a rapper and aspiring mogul from Shreveport, La., who calls himself the Ratchet King. As you can guess from his name, he came up with the song’s concept, and he rhymes alongside another Shreveport rapper, Untame Mayne. (“Mayne” is regional slang for “man,” but his verse isn’t as marvelous as his stage name.)

Inevitably, Lil Boosie steals the show with a wonderfully shrill, sing-song verse. He cheerfully salutes a money-making mother in the club: “She got ’bout nine children, but she be makin’ ’fetti/But I can’t talk ’bout li’l mama ’cause I got three already.” And in the chorus, he sums up the state of the world: “He ratchet, she ratchet/Man, we all got some ratchet in us.” Visit myspace.com/lilboosieratchetbadazz to hear it.

All of this raises an obvious question. And on Tuesday night, during a visit to the Atlantic Records office in Midtown, Lil Boosie was happy to provide an answer, of a sort. What does ratchet mean? He chuckled, then provided a few examples. “Outside, your car might be clean as a” — well, finish the simile yourself — “but junky inside. You might be Miss America, but with yellow teeth. Everybody got something wrong with ’em.”

Like, say, an album that’s missing a crucial song?

Anyway: there’s plenty to like on “Bad Azz.” Plenty to skip, too. Almost all the beats were made by Lil Boosie’s in-house producer, Mouse, who favors hard synthesizer tracks. As with many a Southern hip-hop album, the focus is on slang and enunciation, not intricate lyrics. In “That’s What They Like,” Lil Boosie injects plenty of feeling and music into the deceptively simple phrase, “Dey like like dat, huh.” “Zoom,” featuring Yung Joc, is a well-built club track, with electronic drum rolls and a chorus that’s nearly impossible to un-remember. And “I Represent” gives Lil Boosie a chance to spit rhymes alongside his fellow Baton Rougeian and sometime partner, Webbie.

Baton Rouge hip-hop is less festive than New Orleans hip-hop, so the late-1990’s rise of New Orleans stars like Juvenile and Master P didn’t much help rappers like Lil Boosie. In fact, his best-known patron is Pimp C, from the beloved Port Arthur, Tex., duo UGK. He lent his name to a 2003 CD, “Pimp C Presents ... Ghetto Stories,” by Webbie and Lil Boosie. Webbie, a lackadaisical loudmouth, released his major-label solo debut, “Savage Life” (Trill/Asylum/Warner), last year; thanks to an addictive summer hit, “Give Me That,” the album was a modest success. Now it’s Lil Boosie’s big chance to become a little star.
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Old 10-18-2006, 10:59 PM   #105
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I'm of two minds on the subject.

On the one hand, I think rap is the new rock and roll. Part of it's appeal is it's "rebel status", the way it pisses off the old heads. And historically, anything associated with black culture is certain to turn off the old heads. These days when kids want to rebel they aren't going to turn to rock, because their parents think it's cool. They're looking for something parents CAN'T relate to.

I also think that a lot of the gangsta rappers are really in the same category with Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh and their ilk. Both groups cynically push a controversial, "offensive to some but refreshing to others" message, often with shock value, recognizing that this is how money gets made. The cynical willingness of both groups to do whatever it takes to make a buck disgusts me, especially because both rappers and radio hosts manipulate people's emotions, thinking etc in order to do so.

On the other hand, I believe that a lot of modern black pop culture is damaging to the black community, especially black youth. It may be marketed to suburban white kids as Irvine says, but it's being marketed at the cost of black youth. I agree with a lot of what Bill Cosby had to say. And I'm more comfortable with him delivering the message than some white guy who is annoyed by "those loud, scary, uncivilized black people."
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