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Old 09-18-2006, 02:53 AM   #16
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Funny how this is also said by people with the misattributed Jefferson quote that dissent is the highest form of patriotism.
What's funny about it? Is it untrue, as a principle? Would you prefer 'dissent is treason'?

Dissent may not be the 'highest' form of patriotism, but it can be 'a' form of it.

Just as patriotism 'may' be a virtue, but may also not be.
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Old 09-18-2006, 02:55 AM   #17
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I can't disagree with anything in the Yolland's post.

My father and I have widely disparate views of patriotism. I wouldn't think to question his verbally or internally, though he may question mine. And then again, maybe he doesn't.

(Although God knows I judge people on a thousand and one criteria) I don't think I've ever questioned anyone's patriotism. I have questioned abuse of the term and the actions to which it sometimes leads. I think by now the word has deteriorated into jingoism. Maybe we need a new term that would take at least a month before it too began to deteriorate. Or make a law forbidding any politician or pundit of whatever stripe from ever using the word or any derivative of it.

Perhaps your own defiinition of patriotism (if that word has value) should be something against which you measure yourself and no one else.
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Old 09-18-2006, 03:14 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kieran McConville


What's funny about it? Is it untrue, as a principle? Would you prefer 'dissent is treason'?

Dissent may not be the 'highest' form of patriotism, but it can be 'a' form of it.

Just as patriotism 'may' be a virtue, but may also not be.
They may each have an element of truth but they can be contradictory when said with the same intent, by claiming that only one form of patriotism is true they are doing exactly what they accuse their political oppoents of doing.
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Old 09-18-2006, 03:30 AM   #19
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They may well do that. To be frank, in my beliefs I am far more concerned to err on the side of the relatively powerless (hint: not the government), as the powerful can already look after their own interests.

So if there some internal contradictions, I really don't care.
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Old 09-18-2006, 07:47 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Funny how this is also said by people with the misattributed Jefferson quote that dissent is the highest form of patriotism.
Dissent with a logical alternative is a high form of patriotism. Dissent with hatred for their leaders is not patriotism.
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Old 09-18-2006, 01:17 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Dissent with hatred for their leaders is not patriotism.
What if Hitler was their leader? Would you still say the same thing?
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Old 09-18-2006, 01:26 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


What if Hitler was their leader? Would you still say the same thing?
Different people, different standards.
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Old 09-18-2006, 02:21 PM   #23
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Different people, different standards.
Oh please! So every country has a different definition?
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Old 09-19-2006, 07:27 AM   #24
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Thanks for your insights everyone. I found it very thought provoking.
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Old 09-19-2006, 08:50 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


What if Hitler was their leader? Would you still say the same thing?
Melon,

isn't this an example of the reductio ad Hitlerum fallacy?
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Old 09-19-2006, 09:05 AM   #26
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Originally posted by AEON
Melon,

isn't this an example of the reductio ad Hitlerum fallacy?
Haha. You know, I forgot about that thread.

But with that, I don't know if this technically counts as one, because "reductio ad Hitlerum" statements would say something around the lines of, "x is bad, because Hitler liked x."

However, this does touch upon Godwin's Law, because all it said was that Hitler or Nazis would be mentioned in a thread over time, and this does qualify.

Melon
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Old 09-19-2006, 10:38 AM   #27
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Melon, I'm going to go out of my way to ensure that all future threads at Xeidon mention Hitler before the end of page 1...

it would make a change from the usual anal sex, threats of extreme violence, and alan jamison.
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Old 09-19-2006, 12:35 PM   #28
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'honesty, courage, kindness,' are a far cry from the supposed virtue of patriotism. These actual virtues are interchangeable between any person and any society and are mutually beneficial in any context.
The actions to which the proposed virtue of 'Patriotism' leads evidently can and must totally contradict 'honesty, courage, kindness,' and consequently is not a virtue.
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Old 09-19-2006, 03:45 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Oh please! So every country has a different definition?
Going back to your original question - who would want to be a patriot for Nazi Germany?
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Old 09-19-2006, 05:45 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Going back to your original question - who would want to be a patriot for Nazi Germany?
I think you just proved your original point wrong.
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