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Old 12-02-2004, 09:34 AM   #61
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Thanks coemgen, good explanation.
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Old 12-02-2004, 09:58 AM   #62
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We all stand before the Judgement seat. But, no matter how good or bad I am, I still will have sin before God. The only thing that removes all of the sin is God's grace through the blood of Jesus.

I take this seriously as a Sunday school teacher. Teachers of the Word are held to a higher standard in God's eye.
But don't you think it's wrong for a person who gets saved to not bother to curb his/her behavior, thinking, oh well, I'm in no matter what? I have known people who would actually plan to sin ahead of time, and then when questioned say, oh well I'll just tell the Lord I was weak next Sunday! I can't believe salvation was ever intended to be that way. While we all sin and no one is righteous, what I'm saying is that it's hard for me to swallow that a 'saved' person who makes no effort to be good, doing whatever they want, hurting people and being greedy and hateful is going to be judged ahead of a person who was never officially dunked but spent a much more virtuous life. It's like some I know have abandoned all conscious and don't even try to do the right thing, declaring only that they are 'forgiven' and "God is their only judge.' To me a hypocrite or a backslider can't be okay, can't just get by with it. I also have a problem with deathbed confessions of lifelong murderers, sure it's too easy to live the life you want and recant on your deathbed. It's not fair to those who have tried hard to do the right thing in this life.
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Old 12-02-2004, 10:04 AM   #63
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Originally posted by shart1780
Also, I know not everyone who claims to be a christian will go to Heaven. The Bible says he will spit luke-warm christians out of his mouth. He clearly doesn't want believers following him half-heartedly and he says he won't accept it. Don't think everyone in the church is a christian because there's alot who most definitely are not.
I'm hoping that U2kitten reads this. Not all proclaimed Christians love their neighbors as themselves, and there's quite a few who don't take God's message seriously.
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Old 12-02-2004, 10:06 AM   #64
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Originally posted by U2Kitten
But don't you think it's wrong for a person who gets saved to not bother to curb his/her behavior, thinking, oh well, I'm in no matter what? I have known people who would actually plan to sin ahead of time, and then when questioned say, oh well I'll just tell the Lord I was weak next Sunday! I can't believe salvation was ever intended to be that way. While we all sin and no one is righteous, what I'm saying is that it's hard for me to swallow that a 'saved' person who makes no effort to be good, doing whatever they want, hurting people and being greedy and hateful is going to be judged ahead of a person who was never officially dunked but spent a much more virtuous life. It's like some I know have abandoned all conscious and don't even try to do the right thing, declaring only that they are 'forgiven' and "God is their only judge.' To me a hypocrite or a backslider can't be okay, can't just get by with it. I also have a problem with deathbed confessions of lifelong murderers, sure it's too easy to live the life you want and recant on your deathbed. It's not fair to those who have tried hard to do the right thing in this life.
Part of salvation, or being born again, is that there IS an inner change. One cannot simply mouth the words, then plan on engaging in sin. God sees the difference and knows those who truly believe (it is not for us to say).

However, salvation does not make us perfect. All believers will continue to sin.

It is not a matter of what is fair in human terms. God says we cannot earn grace. It is freely given. And we shouldn't be comparing ourselves and our own "virtuous" lives with others.
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Old 12-02-2004, 10:09 AM   #65
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There are a lot of self-proclaimed "Christians" out there who don't allow God into their lives. They don't allow Jesus and his message to transform them. There are plenty of us who allow our transformation to begin, but it's an ongoing transformation, and God is not done working with us yet.
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Old 12-02-2004, 10:11 AM   #66
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Another Anne Lamott-ism that I like:

"God loves you just the way you are, and God loves you too much to let you stay that way."
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Old 12-02-2004, 10:14 AM   #67
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Another good book is "Why Christian?" by Douglas John Hall. It's not quite as easy to read as coemgen's suggestion, but it's very helpful, persuasive. Anybody read it?
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Old 12-02-2004, 10:35 AM   #68
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
Between you and me, I believe we both have received God's grace. Please do not interpret my comments as suggesting that you are not saved.

We both are responsible for giving an answer for the hope we have. I know we both grow from these discussions.
I do not misinterpret your comments, and believe me I am really looking forward to hanging with you here or in a better place. I know you are not judging me, and I feel we are brothers.

Peace
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Old 12-02-2004, 11:24 AM   #69
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Originally posted by U2Kitten


But don't you think it's wrong for a person who gets saved to not bother to curb his/her behavior, thinking, oh well, I'm in no matter what? I have known people who would actually plan to sin ahead of time, and then when questioned say, oh well I'll just tell the Lord I was weak next Sunday! I can't believe salvation was ever intended to be that way. While we all sin and no one is righteous, what I'm saying is that it's hard for me to swallow that a 'saved' person who makes no effort to be good, doing whatever they want, hurting people and being greedy and hateful is going to be judged ahead of a person who was never officially dunked but spent a much more virtuous life. It's like some I know have abandoned all conscious and don't even try to do the right thing, declaring only that they are 'forgiven' and "God is their only judge.' To me a hypocrite or a backslider can't be okay, can't just get by with it. I also have a problem with deathbed confessions of lifelong murderers, sure it's too easy to live the life you want and recant on your deathbed. It's not fair to those who have tried hard to do the right thing in this life.
Well one needs to keep in mind that Jesus when speaking always said REPENT and believe. You can't have one without the other. And while we are not saved through works we have from James "faith without works is dead". Part of having faith making that inner change and giving every effort to live as God would have us live. Good works is should be the result of faith. "You shall know a tree by its fruit" and all.

Where this becomes difficult is that everyone lives different lives. A person who was abused as a child, grew up in abject poverty and was born with a difficult personality in a great many cases will not be as pleasant a person as one born with a pleasant disposition in a nice rich, loving home. And people are at different stages of development, change does not happen immediately. A nasty person who is a Christian may have been a much worse person if they were not. That is why we cannot judge. So much of us, even our minds, personalities are external to the soul. A good soul may be obscured by a dirty window.

And if repentance is genuine (again something we cannot know) then it is accepted. Christ forgave the thief on the cross, which is all the more remarkable on that the Greek word lestes which is usually translated as thief, in a 1st Century Judean context is more properly translated as terrorist. The Judean countryside was littered with political dissidents and religious fanatics who robbed and/or murdered anyone who came along (you can see this reality in the story of the Good Samaritan). But I don't deny that this is hard. But again we must remember Christ's words, he spoke to this directly in the parable of the Vineyard, where those who started working in the last hour of the day received the same wage as those who started at dawn. Human conceptions of fairness have nothing to do with God. It's not fair that the murder who honestly recants on his death bed is saved, but a great many things in this life aren't fair, ones we accept every day without a whimper. It's not fair that I sit here at a computer warm, statisfied wealthy while millions of people starve to death having nothing simply by the fact of where and when and to whom they were born. Life does not conform to our judgements of fairness, and if it did I often wonder how much people would really enjoy that. But we have faith that God is just, and though to us it doesn't seem fair, charity requires that we rejoice for every soul that is saved. And really, unless you have lived that other person's life right down to their personality no one can say that they would have done differently.

And really when you think about it, eternal damnation is something too terrible to imagine, that to wish it upon anyone... I can imagine myself that angry... I have been on many occasions but when I really think about it, to do so isn't right. That is not loving your neighbor. But it is very hard.
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Old 12-02-2004, 11:40 AM   #70
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Thanks to all of you for answering my post. I thought it should be that way. Some people I know have a lot to learn, or they may just be surprised on judgement day.
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Old 12-02-2004, 11:57 AM   #71
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The thing is why should they wait until judgement day? Eternity, where ever you spend it, doesn't begin when yo die. Eternity with God can begin NOW while you're still alive here on Earth. It's as simple as calling out to God, knowing he died for your sins, asking him for forgiveness of those sins and then accepting him as Lord. Then the rest of your life, as long as you stay focused on him and his word, will be the greatest adventure ever! I'll be honest guys. My wife and I have NO money right now. None. We have rent and a number of other bills and our account is overdrawn. We just applied for food stamps too. I know that if I didn't have God, I'd be freaking out now. But I'm not. He's in control and I've given my life to him. He's going to lead us out of this situation. I know it! He's never let us down. He sticks to his promises, which are everywhere in the Bible. That's the best testimony I can give you guys —*this peace I feel now despite the situation my wife, and child (soon to be two) are in. God is good!
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Old 12-02-2004, 12:05 PM   #72
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Originally posted by coemgen
I'll be honest guys. My wife and I have NO money right now. None. We have rent and a number of other bills and our account is overdrawn. We just applied for food stamps too. I know that if I didn't have God, I'd be freaking out now. But I'm not. He's in control and I've given my life to him. He's going to lead us out of this situation. I know it! He's never let us down. He sticks to his promises, which are everywhere in the Bible. That's the best testimony I can give you guys —*this peace I feel now despite the situation my wife, and child (soon to be two) are in. God is good!
i'm terribly sorry for your situation. i'm sure that you, your wife and your children deserve more than you currently have to live with.

but you've expressed a sentiment that i think is destructive and inhibiting...it's something that seems to be inherent in most religions and it's something that i despise.

regardless, i hope your situation improves.
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Old 12-02-2004, 12:13 PM   #73
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What is destructive and inhibiting?
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Old 12-02-2004, 12:20 PM   #74
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The thing is why should they wait until judgement day? Eternity, where ever you spend it, doesn't begin when yo die. Eternity with God can begin NOW while you're still alive here on Earth. It's as simple as calling out to God, knowing he died for your sins, asking him for forgiveness of those sins and then accepting him as Lord. Then the rest of your life, as long as you stay focused on him and his word, will be the greatest adventure ever! I'll be honest guys. My wife and I have NO money right now. None. We have rent and a number of other bills and our account is overdrawn. We just applied for food stamps too. I know that if I didn't have God, I'd be freaking out now. But I'm not. He's in control and I've given my life to him. He's going to lead us out of this situation. I know it! He's never let us down. He sticks to his promises, which are everywhere in the Bible. That's the best testimony I can give you guys —*this peace I feel now despite the situation my wife, and child (soon to be two) are in. God is good!
They shouldn't wait, but I don't see them repenting because they don't think they have to. They think they are the best Christians in the world and have a right to judge everyone

I'm sorry about your monetary situation, mine sucks too. I feel pretty hopeless sometimes.
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Old 12-02-2004, 12:23 PM   #75
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You're in my prayers U2Kitten. Hang in there.
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