Is Jesus the only way to Heaven? How do you interpret these scriptures?

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i would also like to add that i have far more respect for people like A_Wanderer, who has looked at Christianity and decided that it is totally illogical, and that to believe in anything it says is completely pointless, than someone who says they believe the "Christ message", but don't think that he's the only way.


It's a wonderful stepping stone in this global society, when we are discussing religion and participating in interfaith dialogue, that some of us still feel that it is acceptable and reasonable to extend a lack of respect to certain segments of believers.

I disagree with many of your views, but I respect you no less than someone I agree with entirely. There is no moral high ground in a hierarchy of respect.
 
anitram said:




I disagree with many of your views, but I respect you no less than someone I agree with entirely. There is no moral high ground in a hierarchy of respect.

respect is earned. and it is too easily tossed around today. if i feel that someone's stance is an intellectual cop-out, shouldn't i be entitled to that opinion?

to me, if someone comes to the aforementioned crossroads, and somehow ends up with the conclusion that Christ had the right message, but i also disagree with that message, then that is the phrase of someone who copped out. they arrived at the crossroads and stopped. i think it only fair teh, that a person who, when reaching the crossroads, actually uses their mind and sees that only the two options are possible, and follows the path of their choice, has acted more admirably then the one who simply gives up. therefore, the person who acts admirably earns respect.

also notice that though i respect A_Wanderer, it is not because i am in agreement with him! in fact we are at opposite ends of the spectrum on matters of faith. instead, i respect him because he is a person who actually uses his intellect, instead of sitting idly at the crossroads, unwilling to go any further.
 
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Who is giving up? I don't understand at all how you've come to such a conclusion.

There are incredible people of faith all over the world, doing incredible work. Feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, comforting the sick, promoting peace and justice and equality and love for your neighbours. And at night some of them pray to Jesus, some to Allah, some to YHWH, some to Krishna and I'm not bothered at all, because they are living lives of faith and love and they should be respected for it in the greatest possible way. I'm not giving up on ANYTHING by believing that we have all been created by one loving God who is omnipotent and who embraces all people of good will.

I love Mother Teresa's quotes, who said that when a Hindu was dying in her arms, she would tell them, pray to your Gods, to your Krishna. And she said that her job was to make a good Catholic a better Catholic, a good Hindu a better Hindu. Has she not earned your respect by living an exemplary life of Christian faith?

I've said this before and I'll say it again - you can go on believing in a God who doesn't want me in his kindgom, while I will believe in one who will want you in it. And if that's me "giving up", then so be it.


ETA:

i respect him because he is a person who actually uses his intellect, instead of sitting idly at the crossroads, unwilling to go any further.

You know nothing about people's intellect on this board. What a terribly pretentious statement to make. And with that, I'm out, I've absolutely no need to discuss this in the context of who's a greater intellectual. Good luck.
 
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either Christ is the messiah, or he is a stark raving lunatic. or can you tell me that it would be perfectly normal for a person to walk around claiming to be the Son of God. either He is the Son of God, as he claimed, or He is a madman. I don't see how any other conclusion could be reached.

i have to ask you though, where did this stuff about those helping their fellow men in the world come from? did i ever once mentions people's works? nope, not that i recall.

i think it is fantastic that these people are helping to make the world a less harsh place. God created us that we might serve each other, and through serving each other, we are serving Him. and it is possible to do good for the world whether you are a Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, etc.

however, how much good you do your fellow man has no bearing at all on how you get into heaven. so at this point, i think a discussion of works to be irrelevant.

also, i really don't appreciate being misrepresented by you. i never once said that my God doesn't want you in His kingdom. i believe the exact opposite to be true. "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him." jn 3:16-17. instead, it seems as though you say you want the kingdom, but you don't want God in it.
 
He is a madman or a messiah and there is no in between. In all probability he was a madman who history treated extremely well.
 
softhackle said:
you either believe Jesus is the only way to a relationship with God or he was a liar or an idiot. what kind of person you are and the life you lead is not the path that Jesus offers through Him. It's your acceptance of His grace. You accept it or you don't. If you don't believe it that's fine, but it is not the same thing as other religions that do require certain behavior and actions on your behalf to have a relationship with God or some other spiritual entity or entities.

Romans 3:25-28 (NIV), "God presented [Jesus] as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished -- he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law”, the Apostle Paul said.

I believe God's love is stronger than puritanical justice, and also faith without works is dead.

I agree with Deep, these verses are used by humans to divide, control and brain wash, but if you take out the human's nature to distort these verses for power, control, etc; they're simple, clear and profound. You accept them as Truth or you don't.

Or as I do, accept it as a truth, and also believe that a just and loving God wouldn't make only one truth, which was unavailable to most of the world's population throughout most of history, and condemn everyone else.

There are many chairs in this world. Yet they are still chairs. Some call them “sedia”, “silla”, “chaise”, “stoel”, “stuhl”, etc. Does that mean that Spanish, Italian, French, Dutch, and German chairs are really that much different than our own? Of course not. Dio and Dios are God, God is God, Gott is God, Jesus is God, Allah is God, Dagda is God, etc. For good reason God changed our languages at the Tower of Babel because He was afraid of one world religion.

If you don't, that doesn't necessarily make the one's that do accept them as Truth as divisive, separatists or elitists. Sadly, "religion" has been used for the greatest tragedies in human history.

Very true, although religion has hurt a lot of people, and there is a lot is disdain towards organized religion worldwide, there is also a lot of good it does individuals. Sadly, fundamentalist Islamic and fundamentalist Christian religious leaders have been the worst offenders of propagating negative images of religion gone wrong.

Being a follower of Christ is not about a religion (i.e. you and I doing things to have a relationship with God), but rather an acceptance of Jesus’ claims that He was the Son of God. If you believe Him then you follow what He says, but following what He says out of some "religious traditionalism" does nothing in regards to trusting Him and His offering of Grace as the only bridge to a relationship with a righteous God.

True enough, but God is not in a box.
 
whenhiphopdrovethebigcars said:

It means: live like "I", live "through me", live my ideas, my revolution, my teachings, my wonders - and ultimately, live my pain. Then you will come to the father.

Excellent post!
 
A_Wanderer said:
He is a madman or a messiah and there is no in between. In all probability he was a madman who history treated extremely well.

May I become as mad as he is then.
 
Well maybe God made it all happen so in truth Jesus was his son ;)

Part of faith is suspending the probable and embracing the possible.
 
shrmn8rpoptart said:
either Christ is the messiah, or he is a stark raving lunatic. or can you tell me that it would be perfectly normal for a person to walk around claiming to be the Son of God. either He is the Son of God, as he claimed, or He is a madman. I don't see how any other conclusion could be reached.

Interesting, you accuse others here who do not see two options of not using their mind. I as a teacher, believe the person who sees more than two options, more than black and white, ect as having used their mind. I would say the student who sees only two options as being limited in their thinking.

shrmn8rpoptart said:
i have to ask you though, where did this stuff about those helping their fellow men in the world come from? did i ever once mentions people's works? nope, not that i recall.

So because you did not mention, it is not worthy of being a part of the discussion. There are references int he Bible of people becoming Christian and doing something with their faith rather than sitting idly by. Maybe it is you who are not open to looking at iother roads in the intersection.

shrmn8rpoptart said:
i think it is fantastic that these people are helping to make the world a less harsh place. God created us that we might serve each other, and through serving each other, we are serving Him. and it is possible to do good for the world whether you are a Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, etc.

however, how much good you do your fellow man has no bearing at all on how you get into heaven. so at this point, i think a discussion of works to be irrelevant.

Then clearly you are picking and choosing what parts of the Bible are relevant to you and your point of view. Very limiting.

shrmn8rpoptart said:
instead, it seems as though you say you want the kingdom, but you don't want God in it.

If you are directing a statement at someone, try using something other than YOU.

What a awful think to say about a person. Who do you think you are to make a statement like that? Get off the seat of judgement. Who are you to decide what Anitram, or any other poster feels about god. You may not agree with them, but that does not make them any less corect in their FAITH than you are in yours.

If you are not here to have a discussion but to prove you are right on a matter of FAITH why post?
 
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A_Wanderer said:
Well maybe God made it all happen so in truth Jesus was his son ;)

Part of faith is suspending the probable and embracing the possible.

embracing the impossible too:wink:
 
Dreadsox said:


Interesting, you accuse others here who do not see two options of not using their mind. I as a teacher, believe the person who sees more than two options, more than black and white, ect as having used their mind. I would say the student who sees only two options as being limited in their thinking.

{...}

If you are not here to have a discussion but to prove you are right on a matter of FAITH why post?


:up:

outstanding post. there might be only one truth, but there is never just a single answer.
 
anitram said:
I disagree with many of your views, but I respect you no less than someone I agree with entirely. There is no moral high ground in a hierarchy of respect.
I agree, I think anyone who has well-thoughout posts and who is attentive to opposing viewpoints earns my respect, even if I don't agree with them.
 
Dreadsox said:


Interesting, YOU accuse others here who do not see two options of not using their mind. I as a teacher, believe the person who sees more than two options, more than black and white, ect as having used their mind. I would say the student who sees only two options as being limited in their thinking.



So because YOU did not mention, it is not worthy of being a part of the discussion. There are references int he Bible of people becoming Christian and doing something with their faith rather than sitting idly by. Maybe it is YOU who are not open to looking at iother roads in the intersection.



Then clearly YOU are picking and choosing what parts of the Bible are relevant to YOU and your point of view. Very limiting.



If YOU are directing a statement at someone, try using something other than YOU.

What a awful think to say about a person. Who do you think YOU are to make a statement like that? Get off the seat of judgement. Who are YOU to decide what Anitram, or any other poster feels about god. YOU may not agree with them, but that does not make them any less corect in their FAITH than YOU are in yours.

If YOU are not here to have a discussion but to prove YOU are right on a matter of FAITH why post?
i'd like to start by pointing out, that if a person doesn't want someone directing posts at someone else by using the word you, maybe they shouldn't do it themselves.

okay, now that that's out of the way...i think i'm ready to discuss these things. so i'll ask a question: what other ways exist at this intersection? obviously there are those that would disagree with me on this issue, so instead of attacking me this time, let's address the issue. i don't believe that it is possible to have any other conclusions than Christ was the messiah, as he claimed, or he was a madman. others disagree. please explain the other alternatives.

next point...good works. good works are not how one gets into heaven. salvation is through faith alone, grace alone, and scripture alone. however, this doesn't mean that works don't have their place. faith in Christ truly changes an individual, and one of the ways this can be seen is through their works. so, faith in Christ saves, and then produces a willing spirit. works in and of themself, work nothing towards salvation. they are fantastic in terms of what they work towards the good of the world, but without a belief in Christ, they work nothing towards a person's salvation.

again, others here would accuse me of picking and choosing parts of the bible to fit my own understanding. fine, i'll accept their opinion, but i would again ask that they would provide instances of this, and show me my error, and how i can correct it. (maybe someone could show me some versus, and explain them in their greater context, and prove me wrong)

i have also been asked how i can make inferences on anyone else's thoughts on God. my answer: i cannot know what is in their hearts. it is not my place to judge. i cannot know if anyone else is going to be saved or not. however, i think that is well within my intellectual capacity to read someone else's statements on said matter and judge their opinion based on what they put out in a public forum, just as others judge me based on what i write.

finally, i think that if we are not allowed to point out what we find to be flaws in other people's logic, in a matter where it would seem that we are all professing to be seeking an ultimate truth, then we will have a very poor discussion in deed. if an opinion is necessarily right, and not to be questioned simply becaus a person has that opinion, how a can a person ever advance past their current intellectual state?
 
shrmn8rpoptart said:
i'd like to start by pointing out, that if a person doesn't want someone directing posts at someone else by using the word you, maybe they shouldn't do it themselves.

generally when we QUOTE someone we know who you is....

:wink:
 
right...so, any thoughts on how good works would get a person into heaven? because it was pointed out that i was operating on a limited biblical viewpoint if i failed to recognize this. please explain this to me.
 
shrmn8rpoptart said:

1. have you ever met anyone in the course of your life who would say "i am such and such" and not mean themselves?

2. if i were to say to you "i am john smith" would you take it to mean that i was saying that my belief system was john smith and my past actions were john smith, and everything about me was john smith, but in fact i did not mean that my own personal self was john smith?

3. to take things from your point of view would be to ignore the entire rest of Christ's words, and in fact the rest of the Bible altogether.

4. and it is not for us to interperate in some willy nilly fashion, making fit with our every whim.


1. Yes

2. Exactly, depending on what your definition of "I" is

3. No

4. Don´t dare to dis´ me. It´s not fashionable to live the Bible this way. It´s not fashionable to interprete God´s words as a call for action to live a better life. On the contrary, this is quite unfashionable in our willy nilly postmodern society.
 
whenhiphopdrovethebigcars said:


1. Yes

2. Exactly, depending on what your definition of "I" is

3. No

4. Don´t dare to dis´ me. It´s not fashionable to live the Bible this way. It´s not fashionable to interprete God´s words as a call for action to live a better life. On the contrary, this is quite unfashionable in our willy nilly postmodern society.
1. explain, use examples, i would like to see how this is done.

2.apparently i've lived a sheltered life. what are the various definitions of I?

3.i think that this is a long discussion here. i think it would be interesting to see how we each see your interpretation of Christ's words lining up with the rest of Christ's teachings, and then the rest of the Bible.

4.this was not a comment directed towards you personally, nor was i intending to "dis'" you. i was simply stating that if we are to make claims on Christ's words like this, then they have to line up with the rest of scriputure. otherwise, all that is accomplished is that a few verses have been interpreted without regards to the context in which they are found, and i believe this sort of interpretation to be dangerous.
 
shrmn8rpoptart said:
right...so, any thoughts on how good works would get a person into heaven? because it was pointed out that i was operating on a limited biblical viewpoint if i failed to recognize this. please explain this to me.

Honestly, not interested. I am tuned out based on the treatment of posters who disagree with you.

EDITED: I have been in a lousy mood all day....maybe when I have adjusted my lousy attitude.
 
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so other's actions can be discounted because they do not line up with your notions of what is right or wrong.

i don't believe that a discussion can be had, in which the various discussers are not allowed to debate the merits of others ideas (whether or not they deem other's ideas to be correct or incorrect). if we cannot do this, then we everyone is left with their own unchallenged opinion, and no progress forward can be made.
 
Telling someone their their vision of heaven does not include God, IS NOT debating. It is insulting.
 
thank you HipHop. your interpretation is very inspiring. everyone's were in different ways, and helped me greatly in making my own decisions about how i feel. i'm only 16 and i am very torn about alot of these kinds of things because what i feel in my heart and my interpretations conflict with what the church or my older brother says is true. it shouldnt have, but it made me very doubtful and i had alot of questions about my own relashonship with God. and i am getting closer all the time. i also closley related to se7en's posts i thought. so thanks

" God is interested in whats in people's hearts"- Bono said that and that is what i'd like to believe.
 
Two seeds from the same package are planted. Both seeds produce plants to the excitement of the gardener. Both seeds receive the water, sunlight, and nutrients necessary to be productive, because the Gardner loves both plants. One plant, sits there in the garden doing nothing. The other bears fruit and fulfills its purpose in the garden. The fruitfull plant will produce more seeds for the gardener, while the other produces nothing for today, tomorrow, or the future.
 
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Dreadsox said:
Telling someone their their vision of heaven does not include God, IS NOT debating. It is insulting.
i don't think i was insulting her. it was a response to a comment that was made in which i was accused of wishing someone else's damnation. (the comment was something along the lines of not wanting her in my kingdom). my post was intended to point out not that God was rejecting her, but instead that she had rejected God.
 
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Dreadsox said:
Two seeds from the same package are planted. Both seeds produce plants to the excitement of the gardener. Both seeds receive the water, sunlight, and nutrients necessary to be productive, because the Gardner loves both plants. One plant, sits there in the garden doing nothing. The other bears fruit and fulfills its purpose in the garden. The fruitfull plant will produce more seeds for the gardner, while the other produces nothing for today, tomorrow, or the future.
alright! now some fruitful discussion.

okay, i first have to ask what do the original two seeds represent? if they represent those that have faith in Christ by the grace of God then you are right. there are numerous parables where Christ explains that we have an obligation as His followers to serve others.

however, if these two seeds are simply people who are not followers of Christ, things get a little more touchy. of course it is still honorable to perform good works, but they are only so in the eyes of men. the bible tells us that "we have all become like one who is unclean, and all our rightous deeds are like a polluted garment." isaiah 64:6.
 
shrmn8rpoptart said:
she had rejected God.

That's appalling and truly bothers me to the core of my soul. I've been a member here for nearly 4 years and I've never had something so incredibly cruel and untrue said to me. Thanks a lot, have a Merry Christmas. :sad:

See you around, Dread. Tell your wife she's found herself one of the good ones. :hug:
 
anitram said:


That's appalling and truly bothers me to the core of my soul. I've been a member here for nearly 4 years and I've never had something so incredibly cruel and untrue said to me. Thanks a lot, have a Merry Christmas. :sad:
like i said before, i cannot know your heart, but from your posts, it does not seem like your views exactly represent one who accepts God. you may acknowledge God, maybe bring some biblical teachings in to your own belief system, but from comments that you made within this thread, i was lead to believe that you disagree with more of the Bible than you agree with. Happy New Year.
 
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