Is Jesus the only way to Heaven? How do you interpret these scriptures? - Page 15 - U2 Feedback

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Old 12-06-2004, 01:00 PM   #211
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killer line.
Thank you.....

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Old 12-06-2004, 01:05 PM   #212
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My point is, that it is revealed to me. I have faith that this is one of the important examples provided by Christ.

You may need it explicitly. My faith and belief leads me to a different place than you.

I also think one of the messages of Christ is the dangers of man taking things to such a literal extreme that we are no longer doing God's will. There are plenty of examples of Christ standing up to the powers that be and their interpretations of the LAW.

The literalness does not equal righteousness.
this may be a personal question, but how was it revealed to you?

no doubt it is an important example, but Christ did not leave these people as they were when he reached out to them! he did not tell them that their lives were good enough as they had been living without him. he forgave them their sins, but added the important caveat "go and sin no more." obviously it was Christ intent to bring these people to Him, not to leave them happily as they were.

i believe that the Bible is the most consistent and reliable place for God to be revealed to humanity. thoughts and feelings are fickle, and change from moment to moment depending on what's happening in one's life. yet God's word remains unchanging. it is how God has chosen to speak to His children after Christ came.

sorry, about some of the literalness stuff, if you'll look, i posted on that subject again.
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Old 12-06-2004, 01:11 PM   #213
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this may be a personal question, but how was it revealed to you?
If I was unclear, I find it revealed to me through scripture.

Example, there are many times as a teacher, where a question cannot be answered by looking for it to be written in black and white. Inferrential questions very often require the reader to take information from a global point of view to answer them.

My revelation is from the WORD. I have faith that there is more to the scriptures than it being carved in stone with no deeper meaning.

I think there is a reason Jesus used parables. He could have just sat at home and written his own book, making everything easy for us now couldn't he? Unless he did not know how to write? If he did not know how to write, what was wrong with him. He is God. All of the other great prophets and people who communicated with God were able to get it all down for us. What was wrong with Jesus?
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Old 12-06-2004, 01:15 PM   #214
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I'm not sure anyone is denying that there is more to understanding God than what is revealed to us in Scripture. But we have been given a Rules Book.

What is safer? To explain Salvation as described in black & white, or to describe the possible deeper meanings leading to Salvation?
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Old 12-06-2004, 01:16 PM   #215
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I think there is a reason Jesus used parables. He could have just sat at home and written his own book, making everything easy for us now couldn't he? Unless he did not know how to write? If he did not know how to write, what was wrong with him. He is God. All of the other great prophets and people who communicated with God were able to get it all down for us. What was wrong with Jesus?

wow, you're on fire this afternoon. the parables -- what a brilliant example to combat the literalness of some people of faith.
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Old 12-06-2004, 01:21 PM   #216
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i think a good literature or creative writing class would be very beneficial. not that i think Scripture is either, but i do think it would benefit everyone greatly to understand the bias inherent to any and all language and just how we go about creating our own meanings in our own image. essentially, there are no "correct" readings of anything -- all we can hope for are valid, defensible readings that are necessarily in dialogue with one another.

i feel as if much of the justification of your faith, and that "faith alone" clause, flows from this, and for someone like me this becomes a bit of an impossible situation.

#2: science is, like reading, a cultural product, and any scientist worth his/her salt would never assert the infallability of a scientific finding in the same manner with which you are asserting the scripture. also, since the basis of religion is *faith* -- you choose to believe, rather than wait to be shown -- i'd think that humility would come much more easily to you. faith is predicated upon doubt, for if you had no doubt it wouldn't be faith, then, would it?

#3: you missed the point again. people treating the bible as if it were a dictionary. however, on the subjects of dictionaries, ever noticed how meanings of words shift and change over time? how new words are added as society changes and things are invented? it's malleable, and subject to reinterpretation and revision, and any good post-modernist knows that words only reference other words, so therefore it's a self-referential, closed system that serves as an authority, but we know it's subjective and not Truth. it's what we use as truth -- for spelling, for word meaning -- but it is not Truth.

#4: sounds more appealing to me than the "i'm saved and you're not" attitude. though, according to your rules, the vast majority of people on earth are not saved because most people do not accept Jesus as their personal savior. maybe if you loosened up your reading and focused on the message rather than the words you could find a way to save that child in Calcutta?

your last paragraph is how many people see the bible. and you seem to repeat, over and over, "salvation" and "eternal life" as if they were gifts to be won. just an observation.
#1: i hope you read my reply about the conversation i had with my pastor. a note on the different Hermenuetics, some are obviously more correct than others, though none are perfect.

#2: we all rely on faith for everything. i believe that someday, i will cease to live. is it an incorrect statement for me to make at this point in my life, simply because i did not wait for it to happen to make this statement? i don't believe so. and there will come a day where i will be shown that death is inevitable. just as there will come a day in which the existence of God will be revealed to everyone.

#3: okay, dictionary bad example. for the record, i am disgusted with most post-modernist philosophy. but, maybe an argument can be made that when a translation of the bible is proven to not be trustworthy, it is disregarded, and scholars return to the original in order to get a more accurate translation. oh crap, #3, that reminds me, i haven't eaten yet, and man am i hungry.

#4: the fact is that the majority have people will probably not be saved. that is what i believe Christ meant with the "wide road/narrow road" analogy. and how would "loosening my definiton" help the kid in calcutta? if i believe that salvation is an objective fact, and that God exists apart from myself, how would my beliefs change the outcome of that child's life? now, if i were to go and give the gospel to that child, that would be a way to save the child in calcutta.

and no, i've said it before, and i will continue to say it: salvation and eternal life are not gifts to be "won" by us. they are gifts that are freely given by the grace of God, that i cannot gain by ANY merit of my own.
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Old 12-06-2004, 04:15 PM   #217
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Originally posted by shrmn8rpoptart
#4: the fact is that the majority have people will probably not be saved. that is what i believe Christ meant with the "wide road/narrow road" analogy. and how would "loosening my definiton" help the kid in calcutta? if i believe that salvation is an objective fact, and that God exists apart from myself, how would my beliefs change the outcome of that child's life? now, if i were to go and give the gospel to that child, that would be a way to save the child in calcutta.

and no, i've said it before, and i will continue to say it: salvation and eternal life are not gifts to be "won" by us. they are gifts that are freely given by the grace of God, that i cannot gain by ANY merit of my own.
The grace of god ???,, IF salvation and eternal life are gifts freely given by the grace of god. Then why on earth does this Calcutta child even need the gospel to know about god ??.
Its a weak god you are worshipping, if it takes the scriptures to enter his kingdom and its not a believable god then.
If god was rightious, then he/she would disregard whatever knowledge of the bible that people have. And instead look at the way people have lived their life.
I am not trying to offend anybody, but throwing the gospel at the feet of people and claim their connection to god starts there, is insane and indeed narrow minded.
God should start within,, with no help,, Otherwise then its not god who tries to tell you something, but some eager worshipper who takes away the beauty of believing. By not making it a free choice or a real need. And then how can anybody say that their connection to god is real ?.
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Old 12-06-2004, 10:03 PM   #218
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The grace of god ???,, IF salvation and eternal life are gifts freely given by the grace of god. Then why on earth does this Calcutta child even need the gospel to know about god ??.
Its a weak god you are worshipping, if it takes the scriptures to enter his kingdom and its not a believable god then.
If god was rightious, then he/she would disregard whatever knowledge of the bible that people have. And instead look at the way people have lived their life.
I am not trying to offend anybody, but throwing the gospel at the feet of people and claim their connection to god starts there, is insane and indeed narrow minded.
God should start within,, with no help,, Otherwise then its not god who tries to tell you something, but some eager worshipper who takes away the beauty of believing. By not making it a free choice or a real need. And then how can anybody say that their connection to god is real ?.


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Old 12-07-2004, 08:41 AM   #219
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The grace of god ???,, IF salvation and eternal life are gifts freely given by the grace of god. Then why on earth does this Calcutta child even need the gospel to know about god ??.
Its a weak god you are worshipping, if it takes the scriptures to enter his kingdom and its not a believable god then.
If god was rightious, then he/she would disregard whatever knowledge of the bible that people have. And instead look at the way people have lived their life.
I am not trying to offend anybody, but throwing the gospel at the feet of people and claim their connection to god starts there, is insane and indeed narrow minded.
God should start within,, with no help,, Otherwise then its not god who tries to tell you something, but some eager worshipper who takes away the beauty of believing. By not making it a free choice or a real need. And then how can anybody say that their connection to god is real ?.
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Old 12-07-2004, 09:46 AM   #220
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If god was rightious, then he/she would disregard whatever knowledge of the bible that people have. And instead look at the way people have lived their life.

It appears that you define God in your own way, as it is not Jesus Christ as described in the Bible.

We should not create our own version of God. "You shall have no other gods before me." Exodus 20:3
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Old 12-07-2004, 09:55 AM   #221
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A great post as usual, nbc.
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Old 12-07-2004, 10:50 AM   #222
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Originally posted by nbcrusader



It appears that you define God in your own way, as it is not Jesus Christ as described in the Bible.

We should not create our own version of God. "You shall have no other gods before me." Exodus 20:3
Ok, if its not Jesus Christ as described in the bible. Then lets call it the Jesus Christ in the heart of someone who actually cares.
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Old 12-07-2004, 10:52 AM   #223
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Okay, I think that was a bit uncalled for. NBC is a very caring and conscientious post-er, and maybe you should take some time to know him before you make comments like that.
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Old 12-07-2004, 11:00 AM   #224
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I have posted twice before in this thread and mentioned both times that i am not trying to offend anybody. I am still not trying to offend anybody at all. And i didn´t even say that his views are wrong.
The line is about ME,, As he stated then my views didn´t represent the Jesus Christ in the bible.. Isn´t it a bit uncalled for to not let me express my views and hopes of Jesus.. They are certainly not offensive to others. The getting to know each other hopefully apply to me too, before my right to view my own thoughts are being taken away
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Old 12-07-2004, 11:04 AM   #225
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I guess the question is, "How do you define God"?
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