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Old 12-04-2004, 03:09 PM   #151
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Originally posted by shrmn8rpoptart
i don't think i was insulting her. it was a response to a comment that was made in which i was accused of wishing someone else's damnation. (the comment was something along the lines of not wanting her in my kingdom). my post was intended to point out not that God was rejecting her, but instead that she had rejected God.
You know what.....

You just proved my point.....for a Christian, you have a very strange way of showing Christ's love towards others.

Only a few times, have I witnessed people say things even remotely as offensive as this is.
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Old 12-04-2004, 03:11 PM   #152
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whenhiphopdrovethebigcars, how would you interperate Acts 4
"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."? there is no "ambiguous "i" in this verse, so i wonder if that changes anything?
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Old 12-04-2004, 03:14 PM   #153
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Originally posted by Dreadsox


You know what.....

You just proved my point.....for a Christian, you have a very strange way of showing Christ's love towards others.

Only a few times, have I witnessed people say things even remotely as offensive as this is.
explain. please show me the error of my ways so that i can change.
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Old 12-04-2004, 05:58 PM   #154
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
I've been reading James recently. It is interesting that the example James gives for "works" is Abraham's offering of Isaac.

"Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did." James 2:21-22
I am almost at the point where my beliefs are that the argument of salvation through faith and salvation through works is not the true argument Christians should be thinking about. A lot of wasted time is spent on this.

I would say that the argument is about faith in God that brings about works verses faith that brings a belief in God. I think the telling line in James is something along the lines of even demons have the latter faith.
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Old 12-04-2004, 10:40 PM   #155
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okay, that makes sense. except that i don't think the time that is spent on it has been wasted. this is the core issue of the Christian faith. i would be interested to hear what the true argument Christians should be worried about is.

as to the second paragraph...the second kind (the kind that a demon has), from how you describe it, would be faith that brings about a knowledge of God. i think faith in God necessarily implies a belief. also, a true faith in Christ does bring about an internal change that will reveal itself through works.

which brings around the big issue. what is required to get into heaven? is it leading a good life and having a good heart? is it obeying all of the commandments? is it simply having a faith that Jesus was sent by the father to suffer and die on the cross and became the sacrifce to God, that stayed his wrath?

i would argue that it is the last. works, while helpful to others and ourselves, do not appease God. without Christ, we are still under his wrath. if this were not so, then it was wholly uneccessary for Christ to come and die. good works, that are pleasing to God, come from a faith in Christ, by they are only a by product of it. it is possible (though highly unlikely, it is hard to imagine for anyway) for a person to have a saving faith in Christ, without performing good works. however, it is not possible to perform rightous acts that are pleasing in God's eyes without this faith.
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Old 12-04-2004, 11:37 PM   #156
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Originally posted by shrmn8rpoptart
which brings around the big issue. what is required to get into heaven? is it leading a good life and having a good heart? is it obeying all of the commandments? is it simply having a faith that Jesus was sent by the father to suffer and die on the cross and became the sacrifce to God, that stayed his wrath?
Since Jesus was sent to die for our sins, I believe he is THE ONLY WAY into Heaven. No other theology, philosophy, or worldly theories will do it for me. There are millions upon millions of people every generation that spend their lives trying to prove Christianity wrong. Why waste your time? I don't get it, people.

You must have a lot of faith in someone - yourself - if you think you can be the first to prove it wrong. Looking at the world, all I hear is tolerance, tolerance, tolerance, until someone has a cross made out of Christmas lights in their yard. Then I hear a bunch of hootinany about how it should be "illegal" to have anything represent your faith where the public can see it. So since many of us value freedom of expression so much, all the sudden when someone expresses their faith, it's illegal? Somehow I am led to believe that diversity is not acceptable, since a lot of this comes from those who hate the idea of God. How about tolerating something you don't agree with for a change?

And finally leaving all my "righteous rage" behind...

I believe that good works alone does nothing for you. Many people do things that seem right just for recognition, not because it's in their hearts. So many people create an embarassment for believers when they think they're the best Christians in the world just because they go to church and whatnot, but they ignore pretty much everything Jesus taught. We have to allow the message to transform us, and to give us a new purpose.

Faith is the key, and good works is the muscles that grow as a result. If good works were high on the eternity scale, I don't think very many people would make it into Heaven. I wouldn't. How do you go your whole lifetime without breaking any of the ten commandments? I know I can't go a week without breaking any. New Testament-wise, I think loving your neighbor as yourself is a very hard thing to do. I try to do this, but I often forget. That's how far apart I am from God's perfection.
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Old 12-05-2004, 09:20 AM   #157
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Originally posted by shrmn8rpoptart
like i said before, i cannot know your heart, but from your posts, it does not seem like your views exactly represent one who accepts God. you may acknowledge God, maybe bring some biblical teachings in to your own belief system, but from comments that you made within this thread, i was lead to believe that you disagree with more of the Bible than you agree with. Happy New Year.

some people got way too much confidence, baby.

a little humility would go a long way towards furthering this discussion. most of your posts epitomize what drives many, many people away from the Church and form Christians -- this certainty, and the delusional, self-aggrandizing judgements that flow forth. this "my god is bigger than you god" isn't about God, it's about you (the *collective* you), and is usually where i pick up my hat and walk out the door.

for the record, i think it's crappy that God would perfer a child molester who believes in Christ than an atheist who cures cancer
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Old 12-05-2004, 09:23 AM   #158
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[i]

You must have a lot of faith in someone - yourself - if you think you can be the first to prove it wrong. Looking at the world, all I hear is tolerance, tolerance, tolerance, until someone has a cross made out of Christmas lights in their yard. Then I hear a bunch of hootinany about how it should be "illegal" to have anything represent your faith where the public can see it. So since many of us value freedom of expression so much, all the sudden when someone expresses their faith, it's illegal? Somehow I am led to believe that diversity is not acceptable, since a lot of this comes from those who hate the idea of God. How about tolerating something you don't agree with for a change?

[/B]

okay, for the last time: you can put up whatever you want in your yard (crosses, menorahs, shrines to Zeus), you cannot put a cross in a public school, post office, or public building.
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Old 12-05-2004, 11:37 AM   #159
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Originally posted by Irvine511



okay, for the last time: you can put up whatever you want in your yard (crosses, menorahs, shrines to Zeus), you cannot put a cross in a public school, post office, or public building.
I'm not directing that at anyone except for those I've heard it from in my own hometown. I'm not talking about putting anything on public property. I'm simply talking about those who value their own freedom of expression, and can't put up with a different view.
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Old 12-05-2004, 11:40 AM   #160
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for the record, i think it's crappy that God would perfer a child molester who believes in Christ than an atheist who cures cancer
As a Christian, I doubt this, unless the child molester repented and allowed God to transform him. Any present child molester who claims to be a Christian is a far cry from a true believer. True believers have a conscience, a teachable spirit, and know right from wrong.
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Old 12-05-2004, 12:46 PM   #161
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Let's be careful about the stones we're tossing.

Sexual abuse, child molestation, etc., while a serious issue, is usually disease-like. Most molesters have been victims themselves and, from what I understand, have a different time stopping the cycle. I don't know if it's altogether fair to blame them for not knowing right from wrong when maybe their personal history has stunted them from being able to distinguish between right and wrong.

In short, we all need mercy.
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Old 12-05-2004, 12:46 PM   #162
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I meant "difficult," not "different" in my last post. Whoops. Maybe I should proofread more.
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Old 12-05-2004, 12:58 PM   #163
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511



some people got way too much confidence, baby.

a little humility would go a long way towards furthering this discussion. most of your posts epitomize what drives many, many people away from the Church and form Christians -- this certainty, and the delusional, self-aggrandizing judgements that flow forth. this "my god is bigger than you god" isn't about God, it's about you (the *collective* you), and is usually where i pick up my hat and walk out the door.

for the record, i think it's crappy that God would perfer a child molester who believes in Christ than an atheist who cures cancer
ah...thank you for the u2 line, that usually does the trick and makes me look at an issue from a new perspective.

at this point, i'm willing to admit that i might be wrong. however, i won't be wrong simply because others feel that it is wrong to point out when you think another person is wrong.

i never said my God was bigger than whatever anitram believes in. i simply stated that based on previous posts that she had made, it appears that she openly dismisses some core teachings of the Christian faith. i was out of line for saying that she had rejected God. anitram, i am sorry. i can't know your heart. your relationship with God is none of my business, and i apologize for judging something that i have no place to judge.

now, to your second point. macfistowannabe was dead on right. if this child molester truly had faith in his heart, he would be struck down in terror at the monstrosity of his actions, for "the wages of sin is death." if he were to be truly repentant for these actions, make a confession to God of these actions, then by the grace of God, he will have forgiveness. however, if this person continues in sin, with a clean conscious, never becoming fully aware of their sin, and never fully repenting, then i believe that their faith has not been true, and they will receive the just punnishment for their actions.

as far as the atheist person curing cancer...he/she has performed an excellent service to humanity, and i can only imagine that they will be rewarded greatly by humanity for it. however, if this person is an atheist, they would not be performing this service out of a desire to please God would they? so i would not expect this person to be seeking a reward from God either. they will have the reward that they sought, but it will be an earthly one.
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Old 12-05-2004, 01:47 PM   #164
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I really wanna get involved in this thread. But people are so over sensitive about their faith. I am an atheist, but i have no problem with believers. It seems like its the believers who have a problem with the atheists.... Just a thought,, Dont get excited
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Old 12-05-2004, 02:23 PM   #165
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I really wanna get involved in this thread. But people are so over sensitive about their faith. I am an atheist, but i have no problem with believers. It seems like its the believers who have a problem with the atheists.... Just a thought,, Dont get excited
I do not believe people are oversensative. I believe there is a polite way to have a discussion without throwing comments in that are offesive. Almost everyone has their moment in here.

One of the best things about this forum right now, is that since the election we have had so many new people posting their thoughts and ideas. Post away.
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