Is Jacko Innocent?

[Macfistowannabe]

Read and proceed.
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Accuser Told School Dean He Was Not Abused
Lawyer Suggests Exile From Neverland Was Motive for Accusation
By LINDA DEUTSCH, AP

SANTA MARIA, Calif. (March 15) - Depicting Michael Jackson's accuser as vengeful and angry over being evicted from the Neverland Ranch, the pop star's attorney suggested that the boy made up a story of abuse to get even.

Under cross-examination, the boy's testimony consumed a full day on the witness stand Monday. He also was confronted with his own statements to a school official that Jackson ''didn't do anything to me.''

Prosecutors allege Jackson, 46, plied the boy with alcohol and molested him at Neverland in 2003. The child molestation trial was expected to resume Tuesday.

Jackson, who was threatened with arrest last week when he failed to appear in court on time, arrived on schedule Monday. He wore a stylish red jacket with a black armband and black slacks.

The boy, now 15, said he envisioned a future with Jackson as a mentor. But the Neverland idyll that began when the boy had cancer ended with the family being delivered by limousine to a grandmother's house.

When the time came to leave, the boy acknowledged, his mother was anxious to go but ''I wanted to stay there.''

Earlier, the teenager was asked about conversations he had with Jeffrey Alpert, the dean at John Burroughs Middle School in Los Angeles, where the boy had a history of acting up in class.

Defense attorney Thomas Mesereau Jr., in cross-examination, quoted Alpert as telling the youngster: ''Look at me, look at me... I can't help you unless you tell me the truth - did any of this happen?''

''I told Dean Alpert he didn't do anything to me,'' the boy said. ''I told him twice.''

Jackson was indicted in 2004 after an investigation prompted by the broadcast of Martin Bashir's documentary ''Living With Michael Jackson,'' which showed Jackson with the boy at Neverland. The program triggered controversy because Jackson acknowledged he let children sleep in his bed.

Striking at the heart of the prosecution's allegations of child molestation and conspiracy, Mesereau displayed a video tribute by the boy and his family in which they credited Jackson with changing their lives and helping to cure the boy of cancer.

The video had already been shown in the trial twice. This time, Mesereau stopped it repeatedly to ask if the boy and his family were lying. In most instances, the boy said they were speaking the truth.

''Michael was nice to me,'' the boy testified. ''I felt like he was a father to me.''

Prosecutors allege Jackson's associates had the boy's family make the video after the broadcast of an infamous documentary in which Jackson said he allowed boys to sleep in his bed. The prosecution claims the rebuttal video was staged and scripted.

Mesereau noted that the accuser initially told the prosecutor he was molested before the making of the rebuttal video rather than afterward.

Asked when the conversation with Alpert occurred, the boy said: ''I believe it was after I came back from Neverland.''

It was not clear in court why the dean asked him about Jackson.

Also Monday, the accuser spoke warmly of Jackson's children, Prince and Paris, and said he considered them a brother and sister. But the tone changed when the boy testified of his exile from Jackson's estate.

''When you left Neverland for the last time, you felt your father, Michael Jackson, had rejected you,'' Mesereau said.

The boy bristled, ''I didn't need him. I didn't want him. I didn't feel I was rejected because I had my own real father now,'' referring to a man who would later marry his mother.

Jackson sat motionless across the courtroom, watching the boy testify.

The teen also denied he ever spoke to Jay Leno but said he once placed a call to the comedian from a hospital and left a message on an answering machine. The defense, which claims the family sought to get money from celebrities, has said Leno alerted police after a call from the boy because he thought the family was looking for a ''mark.''
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[Irvine511]

i'm so torn with this case.

as a rule, i LOATHE celebrity trials. however, this one is so utterly compelling because it involves a once hands-down-genius entertainer who has now morphed into an androgenous albino ET, and the horrible, horrible thought of child molestation. lurid as it is, it's hugely compelling, and the ultra-gaudy side show trappings of it all -- the clothes, the ranch, the exorbitant gifts -- make for a really fascinating cultural event.

on the surface, he looks guilty as heck. i also deeply pity Michael Jackson as i don't think there's anyone alive who can possibly understand where he comes from. the whole "have you seen my childhood?" has become a point of mockery, and of course it's no excuse to turn around and harm a child, but really: none of us were whipped with hoses and forced to perform until the wee hours of the mornign when we were 8, none of us were berated by our parents for having "ethnic" features, none of us were raised strict Jehova's Witnesses, none of us became the biggest pop star on the planet. MJ is a deeply disturbed man-child, who is also a genius, and who is also probably guilty.

however, let's not forget one thing that Michael owns that people would kill for: the rights to the Beatles' catalogue. as time goes on, that piece of property is going to be worth billions. the conspiracy theorist inside me can easily envision an elaborate plot to bring him down in order to seize control of that. people have been killed for far less.

 

[melon]

From a legal POV, you don't have to ask yourself if he's innocent or guilty. You have to ask if there's "reasonable doubt." If the press coverage lately is any indication of what's really going on in the courtroom, it isn't looking too good for the prosecution.

But who knows.

Melon

 

[Macfistowannabe]

I don't think we know for sure, but I just hope that none of it actually happened. I think a greedy lie is far less damaging than a child being molested. I suppose I'm most skeptical of the accuser, the accusing side has seemed the most inconsistent.

It's sad that a man so talented like MJ could trash himself with cosmetic surgery and never be happy with himself. I don't know what to say about him arriving in court late with "back pains" in pajamas, whether it's true or it's all drama. I think it was damaging for the defense.

As far as his fame, I'm sure the first child molestation accusation was definately a cause of him losing it. He was on top of the world before it. Now, he's only hitting 2 million an album, and it makes him look foolish when attacking his record company. I think he has a hard time accepting that he's no longer "the king", and that people like Timberlake are making millions and millions by imitating him. He has a lot of bills to pay off, and the Beatles catalogue is probably his only hope.

 

[Maggie1]

It sounds as if the testimony of the accuser and his brother are questionable. They contradicted themselves several times and it has been reported they appear nervous. I am starting to question the accusations and it would not surprise me if they were telling lies.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

I don't think we know for sure, but I just hope that none of it actually happened. I think a greedy lie is far less damaging than a child being molested. I suppose I'm most skeptical of the accuser, the accusing side has seemed the most inconsistent.

Agreed. And it sickens me that people might actually be lying about this stuff, because in case those idiots who are lying aren't aware of this, child molestation is a very serious charge. It's kinda like the women who, for some crazy reason, lie about being raped-they make a mockery of a very serious, hurtful, damaging act, and they make it hard for people to believe someone who does happen to be telling the truth. It's just so insanely stupid.

And if Michael has actually done stuff like this to kids, and parents knew that and still brought their kids there anyway in the hopes they'd get some money out of the deal when it came time for them to make accusations...I'd say those parents would deserve to be punished as much as Michael would should he be found guilty. Putting children in harm's way to make a quick buck...that's sick, too.

Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
It's sad that a man so talented like MJ could trash himself with cosmetic surgery and never be happy with himself. I don't know what to say about him arriving in court late with "back pains" in pajamas, whether it's true or it's all drama. I think it was damaging for the defense.

Definitely. I know it altered my mom's verdict some-for the longest time she was on the fence about this, as I was, but with the constant delays and not showing up and all that stuff that Michael's been doing...well, that certainly doesn't help him look innocent, and makes you wonder if he does have something to hide after all.

I'm in agreement with Irvine, though-I'm not a fan of celebrity trials in general, either. They always turn into three-ring circuses and there's lies flying from both sides because people hope to get money out of it all and stuff, and you never really find out the whole truth about everything that went on. And that's no different here. And Irvine's right about what makes this one hold people's interest in particular-just a sad state of affairs for this guy all around.

Angela

 

[Macfistowannabe]

And if Michael has actually done stuff like this to kids, and parents knew that and still brought their kids there anyway in the hopes they'd get some money out of the deal when it came time for them to make accusations...I'd say those parents would deserve to be punished as much as Michael would should he be found guilty. Putting children in harm's way to make a quick buck...that's sick, too.

Great point. I'm sure this woman was aware that Jackson was an accused child molester to begin with. What was in her head at the time is beyond me.

 

[Noopie]

I'm at work so I can't type much....but I don't understand how showing up late can imply he has something to hide. MJ isn't even being questioned on these days.

I'm guessing if anything, MJ has a difficult time listening to the testimony and these horrible allegations. I know I wouldn't be in much of a hurry to get to the courtroom and listen to someone go through details of how I sexually assaulted them, especially if I knew they were all lies.

Personally I believe in MJ, until proven guilty....which doesn't seem to be the way things are going based on reports. It certainly would be a tragedy.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Exactly, Macfistowannabe. The thought process behind that one would baffle me, too.

I'm at work so I can't type much....but I don't understand how showing up late can imply he has something to hide. MJ isn't even being questioned on these days.

I'm guessing if anything, MJ has a difficult time listening to the testimony and these horrible allegations. I know I wouldn't be in much of a hurry to get to the courtroom and listen to someone go through details of how I sexually assaulted them, especially if I knew they were all lies.

I can certainly understand that. At the same time, though, if someone were accusing me of things like this and I was completely innocent, I don't care what it took for me to prove my innocence, I'd do it. He might be innocent-as I've said before, part of me still just can't see him doing this to kids. It's just that constantly not showing up at the trial will only fuel a lot of people's suspicions. It's best to just go to court when you need to and do everything in your power to prove your innocence-grin and bear it, so to speak.

Angela

 

[diamond]

michael is guilty.
u don't sleep w minor boys ever.
and singing a song entitled 'beat it' doesn't help his case.

db9

 

[Macfistowannabe]

I certainly question his logic in the matter of sharing a bed with a minor. I think he was asking for trouble, whether or not he is guilty.

 

[Irvine511]

michael is guilty.
u don't sleep w minor boys ever.
and singing a song entitled 'beat it' doesn't help his case.

db9

if he is guilty, i certainly hope the prosecution can present a more nuanced case than that.

 

[Do Miss America]

Admitting to sleeping with several minor boys is very damning.

To be accused more than once pretty damning.

To have more than one minor accuse him of serving them alcohol is pretty damning.

But does it make him a child molestor? No.

Does it make him a creep? Yes

Is he child molestor? We may never know.

 

[Laura M]

I don't think we know for sure, but I just hope that none of it actually happened. I think a greedy lie is far less damaging than a child being molested. I suppose I'm most skeptical of the accuser, the accusing side has seemed the most inconsistent.

It's sad that a man so talented like MJ could trash himself with cosmetic surgery and never be happy with himself. I don't know what to say about him arriving in court late with "back pains" in pajamas, whether it's true or it's all drama. I think it was damaging for the defense.

I really thought he was guilty but now I am not sure. I really hope that it isn't true, as you say a greedy lie is far less damaging.

 

[diamond]

if he is guilty, i certainly hope the prosecution can present a more nuanced case than that.

-showing pornography to minor boys
-serving liquor to minor boys
-having alarms all over your house/bedrooms to be notified if people are approaching
-questionable eccentric activity with animals

Irvine,
need i go on or do you think catholic priests who abused boys were probably railroaded as well?

thx,
db9

 

[Irvine511]

-showing pornography to minor boys
-serving liquor to minor boys
-having alarms all over your house/bedrooms to be notified if people are approaching
-questionable eccentric activity with animals

Irvine,
need i go on or do you think catholic priests who abused boys were probably railroaded as well?

thx,
db9

firstly, it is not my intention to defend michael jackson. i don't care if he's innocent or guilty.

however, you do need to go on. your first two points are allegations, they have not yet been proved in a court of law. even in an America with Nancy fucking Grace glaring out at us from our TV screens, her eyes ablaze with righteous indignation, we are still innocent until proven guilty.

alarms are not illegal, and i've heard nothing about eccentric activity with animals.

firstly, catholic priests also abuse girls, but that's another thread. do i think they were railroaded? possibly some priests are innocent victims, probably the majority of the accused are guilty. that's up for a court of law to decide, not me. but last i checked no catholic priests were in possession of the Beatles' catalogue.

all i'm saying is that there's a huge financial reward to the destruction of Michael Jackson.

 

[deep]

I am pleased to say I have not followed every detail of this tawdry case.


But, a few things do not ring true.

I believe the accusers claim that they looked a 4 of 5 porno sites suspicious.
Has anybody ever looked at just 4 or 5 porn sites?
Once you start looking hours and days fly by in a blur.


Jackson supposedly did only a couple of groping things.
Again pedophiles have a patterned of a lot of repeated behavior.

Jackson is bizarre. His behavior is wrong.

The prosecution’s case is NOT strong.
The witnesses are not very credible and Jackson stands a real chance of being found not guilty, because of “reasonable doubt.”

 

[nbcrusader]

This issue will be resolved on re-direct by the Prosecution.

I guess the question to ask is: would the boy be willing to open up and discuss with the dean about his alleged sexual molestation. Saying nothing happened may have been a defensive mechanism.

 

[sallycinnamon78]

Agreed. And it sickens me that people might actually be lying about this stuff, because in case those idiots who are lying aren't aware of this, child molestation is a very serious charge. It's kinda like the women who, for some crazy reason, lie about being raped-they make a mockery of a very serious, hurtful, damaging act, and they make it hard for people to believe someone who does happen to be telling the truth. It's just so insanely stupid.

Angela

I agree with you completely Angela - but just wanted to put in my tuppenceworth on this: I went to school with a girl who told me that she had been raped, at a specific time. It ended up that this was not true.

However, she HAD been raped - but it was when she was a young girl, by her father, but had blocked it out completely. It ended up that he had done this to her sister and brother as well. All the evidence pointed to this having actually happened, rather than being a case of "false memory syndrome", particularly as her elder siblings had not managed to block it out and had just lived with it as best they could.

My classmate had no idea why on earth she told that lie. We discussed the situation a few years later. Once I knew about what she had been through as a kid, the lying made sense to me, in a weird sort of way.

All I'm saying is that these situations are not always as cut and dry as they appear. Like you, I get angry and upset when I read about false accusations of such a horrendous, soul-destroying crime. What makes it worse is that here in the UK, only around 7% of rape cases result in conviction... is our so-called "justice" system that convinced that 93% of women are lying? I don't fucking think so. It's disgusting and vile.

ANYWAY I digress. The more I see of the Michael Jackson case, the more saddening it appears.

It's sad that a man so talented like MJ could trash himself with cosmetic surgery and never be happy with himself. I don't know what to say about him arriving in court late with "back pains" in pajamas, whether it's true or it's all drama. I think it was damaging for the defense.

As far as his fame, I'm sure the first child molestation accusation was definately a cause of him losing it. He was on top of the world before it. Now, he's only hitting 2 million an album, and it makes him look foolish when attacking his record company. I think he has a hard time accepting that he's no longer "the king", and that people like Timberlake are making millions and millions by imitating him. He has a lot of bills to pay off, and the Beatles catalogue is probably his only hope.

Whether he did it or not (and I sincerely hope not, obviously, for the sake of all concerned) it is all such a mess, and whatever the results, lives have been ruined here.

Great point. I'm sure this woman was aware that Jackson was an accused child molester to begin with. What was in her head at the time is beyond me.

That's possibly the most sensible comment I've seen today. Damn good point.

 

[najeena]

I don't believe that M.J. could get through a day without a dozen people's help... were they so cowed by his money and fame that they let him do whatever he pleased, no matter how damaging? Where were this emotionally retarded man's keepers when he was sleeping with boys?

 

[Dreadsox]

I think he is a few french fries short of a happy meal. I think he is an idiot for even coming close to getting himself in trouble for this.

I think he will be found innocent.

 

[Mr. BAW]

There may be a harder impact when his former "victim/boytoy" from several years back comes to testify; he will identify the same pedophiliac pattern that Michael recently demonstrated and yes, it will be admitted that Michael paid him off just to avoid a trial...that may speak volumns.....

 

[Angela Harlem]

It has always bothered me that people will instinctively reach for the guilty brush and paint him with that. Like anyone though, I'd have no interest in defending him if it were ever found to be true.

Sally Cinnamon and others who have posted about false accusations and damaging lies and all that...I went to school with a girl, who began our school years as well rounded and normal as anyone else. By the time we were in year 10, she began changing. She was heading ofr trouble, hated authority, and rebelled. Not in so obvious ways, but there was trouble brewing. She finally ran away one night and got herself a safe place in a local youth refuge. The next week, she began claims that her stepfather had raped her. Her stepfather was a science teacher at our school. I think few knew what was going on, but I knew her and so heard most of this from her first hand and from subsequent interviews with the school. It was all escalating. Problem was, she was lying. The lie was so absolutely damaging to so many people. Her mother, her sister, her stepfather, everyone who knew them and knew about the claims had seen or witnessed what this can do. Lives ruined because of issues unrelated to her and her stepfather. Lives are ruined by molestation, but everyone needs to tread very carefully when finding the truth. We cant help but judge and decide guilt. I think it's human nature, especially when we dont want to take the risk of doubt over such abhorrent claims.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

I agree with you completely Angela - but just wanted to put in my tuppenceworth on this: I went to school with a girl who told me that she had been raped, at a specific time. It ended up that this was not true.

However, she HAD been raped - but it was when she was a young girl, by her father, but had blocked it out completely. It ended up that he had done this to her sister and brother as well. All the evidence pointed to this having actually happened, rather than being a case of "false memory syndrome", particularly as her elder siblings had not managed to block it out and had just lived with it as best they could.

My classmate had no idea why on earth she told that lie. We discussed the situation a few years later. Once I knew about what she had been through as a kid, the lying made sense to me, in a weird sort of way.

All I'm saying is that these situations are not always as cut and dry as they appear. Like you, I get angry and upset when I read about false accusations of such a horrendous, soul-destroying crime. What makes it worse is that here in the UK, only around 7% of rape cases result in conviction... is our so-called "justice" system that convinced that 93% of women are lying? I don't fucking think so. It's disgusting and vile.

ANYWAY I digress. The more I see of the Michael Jackson case, the more saddening it appears.

Thanks for pointing that out-you're certainly right, sometimes traumatic events are blocked from people's memories and resurface later and things like that, and that's certainly not any fault of their own, so I would totally understand confusion on their part and stuff like that. I didn't mean to make it sound so black and white-basically, I just frown upon any woman who never was actually raped claiming such for whatever reason, but I think most people would frown upon that anyway, so... But yeah, thanks for bringing that situation up, that certainly plays a factor, too.

Back to Michael Jackson...also agree with you about how sad this is in general-and I'm not even the world's biggest fan of his music. I can't imagine how crazy this situation must be for those who are big fans of his music-they're more used to seeing him on court shows than they are on music channels and everything now. And they want to defend him and support him, obviously, but at the same time, if any evidence does come about that proves him guilty...I can imagine that'd probably upset a lot of his fans. I know if one of my favorite artists were found guilty of something like this, it'd disappoint me greatly, obviously.

Angela

 

[BrownEyedBoy]

I just watched that VH1 special "MJ's secret childhood" and through it you can really understand where his behavior stems from.

Several questions about him have daunted me for a while and by watching this I have come up with a few conclusions of my own.

My first question was: why does he keep setting himself up by putting boys in his bed? There was this segment in the show that talked about his ego and about he had become a rebel as a result of his supressed childhood and his father despondent figure. They said that Michael through his actions said "You can't tell me what to do, I'll just bring more 14 year old boys to my house". That tiny little tid-bit of information in my eyes explained why the whole pajama thing and showing off late. Michael has an ego of epic proportions and doesn't like to be told what to do ....anymore (may I remind you his childhood was encompassed by his father tyranic figure).

My other question was why all the changes and the seclusion. If you knew little about Michael's past and how he would pretend to be asleep as an 11 year old while his older brothers - and his father, mind you - had sex with countless groupies on the road. I can't imagine what effect watching your father and brothers have sex with other women can have on such a young boy.

I really hope he didn't do it and that he doesn't get convicted. That would just be the final straw on a human being who has led such a troubled life. Nobody deserves that.

Hopefully, Michael, the truth shall set you free.

 

[verte76]

I honestly don't know, and quite frankly I don't feel a need to know. It's something that's happening to someone who happens to be famous. It's obvious that MJ is a person who's never lived in the real world, doesn't know what that's like, and this fascinates some people. If he's guilty, OK, if he's not, OK, let him get on with his life.

 

[U2Kitten]

I don't think everyone could have lied. There's just too much evidence and too many different stories from people who never knew each other. Something weird happened. I also don't think anyone would be stupid enough to file a false claim knowing they'd be the ones in jail if they were found out.

Admitting to sleeping with several minor boys is very damning.

To be accused more than once pretty damning.

To have more than one minor accuse him of serving them alcohol is pretty damning.

But does it make him a child molestor? No.

Does it make him a creep? Yes

Is he child molestor? We may never know.

Do I think he did these things? YES

Do I think he's a child molester? NO

Is he guilty? Technically, but I don't think he belongs in jail. He needs help, and to be kept away from strange kids.

What I think happened is that in his own mind, he doesn't see anything wrong with it, that it's just "love" so when people say he'd never hurt a child, they're right- he wouldn't. In his mind, it's just 'love' and there's nothing wrong with love. But there is something wrong with his mind, and that is the problem here

 

[Bono's shades]

I used to be convinced he was guilty, but I'm not so sure anymore - at least not in this particular instance. He certainly does need psychiatric help, though.

 

[Flying FuManchu]

The truth...

 

[diamond]

firstly, it is not my intention to defend michael jackson. i don't care if he's innocent or guilty.

firstly, catholic priests also abuse girls, but that's another thread. do i think they were railroaded? possibly some priests are innocent victims, probably the majority of the accused are guilty. that's up for a court of law to decide, not me. but last i checked no catholic priests were in possession of the Beatles' catalogue.

all i'm saying is that there's a huge financial reward to the destruction of Michael Jackson.

if micheal were innocent he would of cleared his good name and honor at any expense.

In the first case he settled, like Kobe Now he's broke and can't settle.


And its not normal to have warning alarms in certain parts of your mansion unless youre not wanting to get caught at something -perhaps in compormising postions w/young boys.

Look Irvine the man is a fruitcake and if you want to be an apologist for him, and talk in legalese -that's your preogative, knock yourself out.

I'm not convinced.

peace,
db9