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Old 12-11-2004, 11:56 AM   #76
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Originally posted by Irvine511



i think there are many, many christians, both on FYM and in the US, who would object to your calling homophobia and creationism as "Christian" views. there are many christians who love their gay brothers and sisters and who don't see evolution as incompatible with Christianity. i'm sure they don't want you speaking for them on these topics, or to assume that your views are the default view held by all Christians. there's lots of diversity and disagreement within Christianity, and i've learned just how irritated many christians get when Politican Christians -- like Robertson, Falwell, Dobson, etc. -- claim to know "true" Christianity and then purport to speak for anyone who celebrates Christmas.
I wouldnt call homophobia a Christian view either. That is the point I am making. Because someone holds true the teachings of the Bible in regards to that particular issue, the are labled a homophobe or a biggot. You just proved my point by labeling the traditional view of homosexulity as homophobia.

Futhermore I included the word traditional in regards to the views of which I was speaking. I do not speak for groups of people by the way, I speak for myself. I made no claims to be the mouthpiece for the entire Christian movement in this country. My pointing out that Christians are in fact persecuted in this country does not mean I am some ring leader of an army of fundementalist or a spokesperson for anyone who claims to be a Christian.

At any rate, no one has a problem with Christian views that don't offend anyone. Those views aren't mocked in the media. Its the Christian views that state what Scriputure say that recieve the ridicule. That is what I mean by traditional views and those who embrace these view are the ones who are persecuted.
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Old 12-11-2004, 12:00 PM   #77
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so atheists, agnostics, and those that don't choose to practice their religion in a church or temple should not be able to get married? Christians have ownership over marriage?

strikes me as the height of arrogance.
I said it is a religious concept not a Christian concept. Which is why the government shouldn't have a say. How is that arrogant? Geeeeeeeeeeeesh.
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Old 12-11-2004, 12:04 PM   #78
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I said it is a religious concept not a Christian concept. Which is why the government shouldn't have a say. How is that arrogant? Geeeeeeeeeeeesh.
becuase you've stated that marriage is solely the province of the religious.

hence, you lay claim upon, and feel entitled to, something that people who don't believe, or choose not to believe, are not.
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Old 12-11-2004, 12:06 PM   #79
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I wouldnt call homophobia a Christian view either. That is the point I am making. Because someone holds true the teachings of the Bible in regards to that particular issue, the are labled a homophobe or a biggot. You just proved my point by labeling the traditional view of homosexulity as homophobia.

considering the justification (or at least the accepted justification) for discriminatory legislation against homosexuals comes from the Bible, i think it's extremely fair to say that the "teachings" of the Bible are homophobic.

if you are going to embrace the view that homosexuality is only about intercourse, that it is unnatural, an abomination, and a challenge akin to alcohlism or kleptomania, then i am going to call that view homophobic.

as you said earlier, i call a spade a spade.
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Old 12-11-2004, 12:38 PM   #80
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Originally posted by Irvine511


becuase you've stated that marriage is solely the province of the religious.

hence, you lay claim upon, and feel entitled to, something that people who don't believe, or choose not to believe, are not.
I said that marriage is a religious concept. True or false Irvine? Is it ? Yay or nay...

If people are not religious why would they want to partake in a religious ceremony such as marriage? Either way, that is why it should be left up to churches ( and other religious institutions) NOT the government.
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Old 12-11-2004, 12:46 PM   #81
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Originally posted by Irvine511



considering the justification (or at least the accepted justification) for discriminatory legislation against homosexuals comes from the Bible, i think it's extremely fair to say that the "teachings" of the Bible are homophobic.

if you are going to embrace the view that homosexuality is only about intercourse, that it is unnatural, an abomination, and a challenge akin to alcohlism or kleptomania, then i am going to call that view homophobic.

as you said earlier, i call a spade a spade.
Well I have no fear of homosexuals or aversions to them or anything of the like. I believe what the Bible says in regards to that yet I love them and everyone else just the same.

For the last time, there is NO justification for legislation which regulates marriage of any kind in my opinion
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Old 12-11-2004, 02:09 PM   #82
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Ok I should have said MOST are then. But that still does not show how Christians are NOT persecuted just because there are a few shows on tele that are "Christianish". Having said that however, I have never watched Seventh Heaven or Joan of Arcadia, but I am almost willing to bet that the way Christianity is portrayed on these shows is not an accurate depiction of traditional Christian views. Would there by chance be that token character on an episode that has a fundemantal belief and says for instance "The Bible is God's Word" and then the plot from that point focuses on how he deals with someone who has AIDS and shows him as being biggoted and hate filled with no compassion or love. Then to counter that, the "really cool preacher dad" on the show who completely disagrees with the the other character's fundemental views is shown as the hero? Now that is purely hypothetical of course but it wouldn't suprise me if it were the case.


If that's how you want to bet then don't go to Vegas anytime soon. But your cynicism is quite victimish. Are you sure you're not a victim?

But you claim to be persecuted. I'm sorry about that. I think it's very narcissistic and naive of you to claim that, but that's your perogative.
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Old 12-11-2004, 02:58 PM   #83
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I said that marriage is a religious concept. True or false Irvine? Is it ? Yay or nay...

If people are not religious why would they want to partake in a religious ceremony such as marriage? Either way, that is why it should be left up to churches ( and other religious institutions) NOT the government.
let's see -- i had two friends who were married by a Justice of the Peace, then had their wedding in a villa in Tuscany. not a priest to be scene, but they're as married as you are.

it's the state's recognition of the union that gives you all those tax breaks you enjoy.
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Old 12-11-2004, 03:17 PM   #84
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Originally posted by Irvine511


let's see -- i had two friends who were married by a Justice of the Peace, then had their wedding in a villa in Tuscany. not a priest to be scene, but they're as married as you are.

it's the state's recognition of the union that gives you all those tax breaks you enjoy.
Not really answering the question though, yes, it's the State's recognition of it that gives us the tax breaks; but the concept of marriage IS intrinsically a religious one.

AS far as I'm concerned, if gays want the same right as married couples, that's fine. The fact that I may not see it as a true "marriage" won't lessen it one iota, my opinion isn't what matters.

As a heterosexual Chriatian married man, I feel no threat whatsoever form gay couples wanting to marry. In fact, the potential financial pitfalls of divorce, alimony, child support, etc may make more couples stay together and work things out rather than split and make things worse by adding yet another divorced couple to the ever-swelling ranks

Divorce situations have caused a lot more problems in society than gay marriag ever will in my opinion.

Priorities.
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Old 12-11-2004, 03:34 PM   #85
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to directly answer the question: marriage exists in two sets of eyes -- the church for those who choose to believe, and the state for EVERYONE. i don't know enough about marriage or its roots to say, definitively, when it started, but it makes sense that it is a pre-christian concept, and while there may have always been a religious component, that's kind of irrelevant to the current situation.

you'd think that the church would *want* gay people to get married -- after all, the stereotypes hurled at gay men are that of prosmicuous, club hopping, drug abusers ... why not get these pour souls married so they can calm down, buy a house, and start going to church and putting money in the collection basket? doesn't everyone benefit when adults are in stable relationships?
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Old 12-11-2004, 07:53 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

you'd think that the church would *want* gay people to get married -- after all, the stereotypes hurled at gay men are that of prosmicuous, club hopping, drug abusers ... why not get these pour souls married so they can calm down, buy a house, and start going to church and putting money in the collection basket? doesn't everyone benefit when adults are in stable relationships?
I was really shocked that this was such a deciding factor for the area of the south I am from that I was literally fighting a loosing battle. I thought it had progressed some, but the fact that someone might have to actually live next door, or have to sit next to a gay couple in church was so frightening to some that they had no choice but to vote the way they did. For Bush.
Even after talking to a former co-worker for 5 years, on issues concerning this war and the economy, and both of us were downsized this year, she still couldn't see voting any other way than what her CHURCH recommended, because that was what was expected of her.
My own younger sister couldn't vote aganist her church because the Pastor convinced the majority that God would be taken off the dollar bill and the Bible would be banned and that Kerry would elect judges that would do this. I have to give Karl Rove and company credit for spreading the fear factor so thick that it literally drove some people to the polls out of fear and ignorance. There's a great deal people who have taken their faith out of God and put it in the hands of George Bush.
(I'm not generalising or being specific of all Republicans and or Independents, at all. (don't hurt me)
I know this is not so of everyone who didn't vote for Kerry, it just a couple of example's of how it went down where I am from.)
I was more heartbroken over these attitudes than I was over the fact that Kerry lost.
and I will keep on trying to convince people that God is Love not hate.. That's all I can do, and pray of course.
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Old 12-11-2004, 08:27 PM   #87
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I was really shocked that this was such a deciding factor for the area of the south I am from that I was literally fighting a loosing battle. I thought it had progressed some, but the fact that someone might have to actually live next door, or have to sit next to a gay couple in church was so frightening to some that they had no choice but to vote the way they did. For Bush.
Even after talking to a former co-worker for 5 years, on issues concerning this war and the economy, and both of us were downsized this year, she still couldn't see voting any other way than what her CHURCH recommended, because that was what was expected of her.
My own younger sister couldn't vote aganist her church because the Pastor convinced the majority that God would be taken off the dollar bill and the Bible would be banned and that Kerry would elect judges that would do this. I have to give Karl Rove and company credit for spreading the fear factor so thick that it literally drove some people to the polls out of fear and ignorance. There's a great deal people who have taken their faith out of God and put it in the hands of George Bush.
(I'm not generalising or being specific of all Republicans and or Independents, at all. (don't hurt me)
I know this is not so of everyone who didn't vote for Kerry, it just a couple of example's of how it went down where I am from.)
I was more heartbroken over these attitudes than I was over the fact that Kerry lost.
and I will keep on trying to convince people that God is Love not hate.. That's all I can do, and pray of course.
That's...really...really scary. Seriously. Using fear as a tactic of getting what you want...wow. People should vote for whatever THEY feel comfortable voting for, not for whatever OTHER people feel they should be voting for. I don't blame you for being heartbroken over that-I don't even LIVE there and that upsets me, too. My god...

Also, I agree wholeheartedly with Irvine in regards to the part of her post about the church wanting gays to get married .

I'm sorry, people can personally have issues with this or whatever, that's their business...but I will never understand the fear getting so big that they would actually ban people from being together like that. Whatever happened to "live and let live"? As long as you aren't hurting or killing anybody, I don't see why people should care so much what you do and who you do it with.

Angela
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Old 12-11-2004, 08:43 PM   #88
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If that's how you want to bet then don't go to Vegas anytime soon. But your cynicism is quite victimish. Are you sure you're not a victim?

But you claim to be persecuted. I'm sorry about that. I think it's very narcissistic and naive of you to claim that, but that's your perogative.
Is that your way of saying, that isn't the case in regards to the hypothetical quesiton I posed? Or is just your way of being evasive at addressing what was asked.

Yes I am not a victim because, regardless of the persecution that IS taking place, it brings me no harm, fear, pain etc because I do not allow it to. Hence, not a victim.

Nice little attempt at a dig there - narcissitic lmao oh and naive too. Would be good if it remotely applied to anything that has been said.

Ever heard that if you can't say anything nice don't say anything at all? Well ignore that and heed this. If you aren't going to make any sense, think of something else to say.

Carrie
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Old 12-11-2004, 09:11 PM   #89
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Is that your way of saying, that isn't the case in regards to the hypothetical quesiton I posed? Or is just your way of being evasive at addressing what was asked.
Yes that isn't the case, sorry it wasn't clear.


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Yes I am not a victim because, regardless of the persecution that IS taking place, it brings me no harm, fear, pain etc because I do not allow it to. Hence, not a victim.

Nice little attempt at a dig there - narcissitic lmao oh and naive too. Would be good if it remotely applied to anything that has been said.

Ever heard that if you can't say anything nice don't say anything at all? Well ignore that and heed this. If you aren't going to make any sense, think of something else to say.

Carrie
Sorry, I did sit their and ponder the wording but just couldn't think of another way to word it. I think anyone who belongs to the largest, easiest to worship in, most accesible, religion in the country and they are saying they are being persecuted isn't seeing the big picture. Sorry that's just how I see it. No one's given me specifice examples. When 82% of the country is Christian I'm trying to figure out who it is that's persecuting you. The other 18% or is it coming from within your own camp?
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Old 12-11-2004, 09:48 PM   #90
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Yes that isn't the case, sorry it wasn't clear.

Sorry, I did sit their and ponder the wording but just couldn't think of another way to word it. I think anyone who belongs to the largest, easiest to worship in, most accesible, religion in the country and they are saying they are being persecuted isn't seeing the big picture. Sorry that's just how I see it. No one's given me specifice examples. When 82% of the country is Christian I'm trying to figure out who it is that's persecuting you. The other 18% or is it coming from within your own camp?
It's hard to explain how Christians are getting slapped on the knee, so to speak, when it seems you have no problem with removing the 10 Commandments from public buildings, fussing over God references fron The Declaration of Independence, unconstitutional lawyers seeing a "glow" in our constitution that suits their own agenda, taking "under God" out of our Pledge of Allegience, whining about the word "blessings" being in the constitution, all this crap isn't exactly "persecution", but I see it as steps in the wrong direction. I see it as an ongoing war that isn't exactly mono y mono, but some find that it has potential to be so. I'm surprised you don't see it that way. Our country isn't supposed to enforce Christianity as the official religion people must follow by law, BUT our Bill of Rights, Constitution, and Declaration of Independence would not be the same had it not been inspired by Judeo-Christian principles.

Nobody is literally being persecuted, but I doubt that allowing a very limited amount of religious rights is going to make most people happy. Some people are extremely upset - could be overreacting - or maybe even not - at the direction this country is headed. Some feel that you have to stand up for your beliefs, just as our founding fathers did when they fought for you and me to give us a free country. You may not see the beginning of anything, but I see potential for emotions to get out of hand.
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