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Old 12-10-2004, 09:43 PM   #61
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Originally posted by thacraic


Some "are" but the problem is, ALL are made to look like the some. That is kinda the POINT that was being made.

Of course people not believing the same as me or other Christians
isn't persecution! What kind of statement is that?

I talk to a friend of mine from Saudi Arabia daily, and when he and I discuss matters of faith, he doesn't attack me for believing as I do, nor I him. We obviously disagree on many things but we do not attack each other for our individual beliefs. That is because we engage in discourse. Now if I were to rip into him and say he was a total moron for thinking Jesus was merely a prophet and then begin mocking him that would be a form of VERBAL persecution (according to the actual definition) and I would safely say it would end our friendship.

Another thing, my daughter's friend is a Muslim and she was over for dinner the other night. After dinner, she was going to her church as she calls it, and was telling us about her faith. She had no fear of saying anything. Her mother has never mentioned feeling persecuted for her beliefs either. Also, a Jordanian friend of mine has never had problems since he moved here about a month before Sept. 11, 2001. He has never once had a word said to him about his religious beliefs or his ethnic origin. He "lovvvvvvvvves this country", as he would say.

I would say that in the time that I have known my Jordanian friend and my Indian Muslim friend, I have recieved more criticism, and personal attacks of my beliefs than they have of their's. So your theory that Muslims are being persecuted in this country and Christian are not , holds very little water with me in terms of my personal experiences.
Well your personal experiences are very positive. That's great. My friends haven't been as fortunate, I guess it depends on your locations or whatever.

But I still don't see how ALL are being made to look this way. Like I said there are programs like 7th Heaven, Joan of Arcadia, movies like the Passion(yes controversial but no persecution) Christian music is on a rise, songs by U2 and songs like Mindy Smith's "Come to Jesus" have heavy rotation where I live, I don't see plastic "Jesus Fishes" being torn off of cars like political bumper stickers, WWJD bracelets(not my fave) when popular were being sold at secular stores, and I can go on and on. So I just don't see how all are being shown in the light.

If you choose to feel like a victim then do so. I will continue fighting the good fight and loving my neighbor knowing it's very easy to practice my faith in this country.
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Old 12-10-2004, 10:15 PM   #62
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Originally posted by thacraic


Hiya Indra,

Would that mean all religions? Or would it just be things associated with one certain one? Should copies of the Quran be removed from school libraries, or maybe Herman Hesse's "Siddhartha"?
I wasn't referring to what is in school libraries to be read, by choice, but rather what is actually taught in school (ie, "intelligent design" or creationism in science class). Actually, if the Bible was taught as literature and not as god's word or some type of fact, I would have no problem with that either (as I would have no problem with The Bhagavad Gita or various other books either). I just don't think many teachers are equiped to teach religious texts as literature without teaching them as fact or God's word, so I can't really see that happening. I also don't care what a kid brings to read in his or her free time either.

Religious education should be taught at home, in a religious institution (church, mosque, synagogue, etc.), or a religious private school, not in a publically funded school.
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Old 12-11-2004, 12:22 AM   #63
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Originally posted by thacraic


Hiya BVS,

I kinda answered this in a different post actually.

There are different levels of persecution. Verbal, physical, mental etc. The backlash against Christianity in the media, in the arts, and on online forums even, would be more or less verbal. It is perecution nonetheless. It does not however compare in anyway of course to what Christians in China endure on a daily basis.

I will for the record paste the actual definition of the word....

One entry found for persecute.


Main Entry: per·se·cute
Pronunciation: 'p&r-si-"kyüt
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -cut·ed; -cut·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French persecuter, back-formation from persecuteur persecutor, from Late Latin persecutor, from persequi to persecute, from Latin, to pursue, from per- through + sequi to follow -- more at SUE
1 : to harass in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict; specifically : to cause to suffer because of belief
2 : to annoy with persistent or urgent approaches (as attacks, pleas, or importunities) : PESTER

I have to say, that the second definition would certainly apply to Christians here in the States.

Do you not see that as true? Honestly?

Take care,

Carrie
Going with the definition of persecution...well, you say Christian in the US are persecuted, but many are also doing a persecuting others too, would you not agree? The bans on gay marriages and civil unions, fuelled mostly by religious groups, is a perfect example of such persecution.

I've been ridiculed, harassed, pestered most of my life because I don't profess a belief acceptable to most of those around me (self professed Christians). I don't care what someone else's beliefs are, but I don't want those beliefs shoved down my throat. Why can't the people pestering me (cause I'm going to go to Hell) respect me and my beliefs, and stop persecuting me?

"to annoy with persistent approaches (as attacks, pleas, or importunities) : PESTER" ...soooo...those Jehovah's Witness's or Mormons (and my former neighbor, who keep trying to convert people who don't want to be converted) are persecuting all of us? I knew it!!!
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Old 12-11-2004, 12:43 AM   #64
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Originally posted by thacraic



Laughable? Come on now. I have steered clear of using that word many times in my responses. I may have let it slip once possibly? But I have really tried not to use it, even though there have been MANY cases in which I could have.

You mean to tell me that when you see Christians stating their views on things they are not made out to be biggots, or morons?
You think that Christians characters on television and in film are not potrayed in a manner which is completely misleading and and nowhere close to what and who REAL Chirstians are?

Furthermore, all entertainment aside, in the real world, traditional Christian views on homosexuality elicit the label homophobic hate monger. A traditional Christian view on the origins of the world elicits the label, ignorant backwoods moron. A traditonal Christian view on ANYTHING pretty much elicits labels and remarks that ARE by definition PERSECUTION.

Christians are made out to be foolish, ignorant intolerant people in song, film and television. If you don't see it I don't know what you are looking at.

At any rate we are are off to buy a Christmas tree...

Take care,

Carrie
Ummm... but no one else is made out to be less or different than what they are in song, film, and television? Many Christians don't mock and disparage atheists, homosexuals, people who believe in evolution?

I'm sorry but if the traditional Christian view of homosexuality is that it is an abomination -- then it is homophobic hate mongering. I don't care if the Bible says otherwise, it is wrong.

And if one truly believes the traditional Christian version of the origins of the world as literally accurate...well, then ignorant is accurate (I would leave out the backwoods moron though ).
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Old 12-11-2004, 12:59 AM   #65
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Originally posted by indra


Going with the definition of persecution...well, you say Christian in the US are persecuted, but many are also doing a persecuting others too, would you not agree? The bans on gay marriages and civil unions, fuelled mostly by religious groups, is a perfect example of such persecution.

I've been ridiculed, harassed, pestered most of my life because I don't profess a belief acceptable to most of those around me (self professed Christians). I don't care what someone else's beliefs are, but I don't want those beliefs shoved down my throat. Why can't the people pestering me (cause I'm going to go to Hell) respect me and my beliefs, and stop persecuting me?

"to annoy with persistent approaches (as attacks, pleas, or importunities) : PESTER" ...soooo...those Jehovah's Witness's or Mormons (and my former neighbor, who keep trying to convert people who don't want to be converted) are persecuting all of us? I knew it!!!
Great point.
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Old 12-11-2004, 03:43 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by indra


Ummm... but no one else is made out to be less or different than what they are in song, film, and television? Many Christians don't mock and disparage atheists, homosexuals, people who believe in evolution?

I'm sorry but if the traditional Christian view of homosexuality is that it is an abomination -- then it is homophobic hate mongering. I don't care if the Bible says otherwise, it is wrong.

And if one truly believes the traditional Christian version of the origins of the world as literally accurate...well, then ignorant is accurate (I would leave out the backwoods moron though ).
indra lets move to canada and get married.
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Old 12-11-2004, 04:39 AM   #67
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Originally posted by indra


I wasn't referring to what is in school libraries to be read, by choice, but rather what is actually taught in school (ie, "intelligent design" or creationism in science class). Actually, if the Bible was taught as literature and not as god's word or some type of fact, I would have no problem with that either (as I would have no problem with The Bhagavad Gita or various other books either). I just don't think many teachers are equiped to teach religious texts as literature without teaching them as fact or God's word, so I can't really see that happening. I also don't care what a kid brings to read in his or her free time either.

Religious education should be taught at home, in a religious institution (church, mosque, synagogue, etc.), or a religious private school, not in a publically funded school.
Hiya Indra,

I completely agree with you on this.

Carrie
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Old 12-11-2004, 05:04 AM   #68
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Originally posted by indra


Going with the definition of persecution...well, you say Christian in the US are persecuted, but many are also doing a persecuting others too, would you not agree? The bans on gay marriages and civil unions, fuelled mostly by religious groups, is a perfect example of such persecution.

I've been ridiculed, harassed, pestered most of my life because I don't profess a belief acceptable to most of those around me (self professed Christians). I don't care what someone else's beliefs are, but I don't want those beliefs shoved down my throat. Why can't the people pestering me (cause I'm going to go to Hell) respect me and my beliefs, and stop persecuting me?

"to annoy with persistent approaches (as attacks, pleas, or importunities) : PESTER" ...soooo...those Jehovah's Witness's or Mormons (and my former neighbor, who keep trying to convert people who don't want to be converted) are persecuting all of us? I knew it!!!
Hello there again Indra,

Yes many Christians do persecute people and it is WRONG for them to do so. But the thing in question here is whether or not Christians are persecuted, and that is what people seem to be blinded to evidentally.

As far as gay marriage is concerned, marriage is a religious concept in first place, and therefore the government should have little to say about it. That is something that should be left up to churches.

LOLLLL at the JWs Mormons bit. That is a really great point However I don't know if I would compare their going around door to door sharing their thoughts and views about their faith to
ridiculing and entire group of people for their beliefs.

Carrie
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Old 12-11-2004, 05:11 AM   #69
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Originally posted by indra


Ummm... but no one else is made out to be less or different than what they are in song, film, and television? Many Christians don't mock and disparage atheists, homosexuals, people who believe in evolution?

I'm sorry but if the traditional Christian view of homosexuality is that it is an abomination -- then it is homophobic hate mongering. I don't care if the Bible says otherwise, it is wrong.

And if one truly believes the traditional Christian version of the origins of the world as literally accurate...well, then ignorant is accurate (I would leave out the backwoods moron though ).
Wow, I have sooo got to get how to quote numerous posts in one single one. At the risk of sounding redundant, Hiya YET again Indra!

The thing in question is not whether people are persecuted for thier beliefs or lifestyle. The thing that seems to be denied is that Christians are.

I disagree about both statements you made in regards to the Christian views of homosexuality and Creation. But I would never say you or anyone else who holds those views are ignorant because of them.

Take care,

Carrie
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Old 12-11-2004, 05:47 AM   #70
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Well your personal experiences are very positive. That's great. My friends haven't been as fortunate, I guess it depends on your locations or whatever.

But I still don't see how ALL are being made to look this way. Like I said there are programs like 7th Heaven, Joan of Arcadia, movies like the Passion(yes controversial but no persecution) Christian music is on a rise, songs by U2 and songs like Mindy Smith's "Come to Jesus" have heavy rotation where I live, I don't see plastic "Jesus Fishes" being torn off of cars like political bumper stickers, WWJD bracelets(not my fave) when popular were being sold at secular stores, and I can go on and on. So I just don't see how all are being shown in the light.

If you choose to feel like a victim then do so. I will continue fighting the good fight and loving my neighbor knowing it's very easy to practice my faith in this country.
Hiya BVS,

I live in Georgia so maybe we are more progressive down here in terms of how accepting we are of all people from all faiths and walks of life. I honestly can not comment though, with the only other place in the world I have lived is Northern Ireland.

Ok I should have said MOST are then. But that still does not show how Christians are NOT persecuted just because there are a few shows on tele that are "Christianish". Having said that however, I have never watched Seventh Heaven or Joan of Arcadia, but I am almost willing to bet that the way Christianity is portrayed on these shows is not an accurate depiction of traditional Christian views. Would there by chance be that token character on an episode that has a fundemantal belief and says for instance "The Bible is God's Word" and then the plot from that point focuses on how he deals with someone who has AIDS and shows him as being biggoted and hate filled with no compassion or love. Then to counter that, the "really cool preacher dad" on the show who completely disagrees with the the other character's fundemental views is shown as the hero? Now that is purely hypothetical of course but it wouldn't suprise me if it were the case.

I have never said that we don't have the FREEDOM to practice our faith as we wish. Everyone has the freedom in this country to believe as they wish! That is why your point about Muslims having difficulty in practicing their faith in this country doesn't make much sense to me. There is no way the persecution in this country can compare to that of Christians in China and I stated that when I initially began posting on this thread.

Im not a "victim" of anything. The insults slung at Christianity do not phase me nor hurt my feelings nor make me want to go and live in another country to avoid being a "victim." But I do call a spade a spade, and in this case persecution, persecution.

Take care,

Carrie
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Old 12-11-2004, 07:54 AM   #71
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As far as gay marriage is concerned, marriage is a religious concept in first place, and therefore the government should have little to say about it. That is something that should be left up to churches.
there was a huge gay marriage thread in FYM, and i suggest you take a look at that.

the only think i'll say is that you are completely wrong about marriage as a religous concept. it is a legal and financial arrangement where you get some 1,049 tax breaks that are unavailable to tax paying gay citizens. no one is talking about forcing any church to recognize gay marriage -- though i'm sure some gladly will -- they are talking about legal recognition for their status as a committed adult couple, and all the legal things that come with it: hospital visitation rights and decision making, inheritance, adoption, shared health plans, etc.

and i'm sorry: the mean-spirited FMA is both unnecessary and really, really nasty. how dare anyone attempt to write a minority out of the constitution simply because of their religious beliefs.

this, my dear, is persecution.
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Old 12-11-2004, 07:57 AM   #72
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Originally posted by thacraic
The thing in question is not whether people are persecuted for thier beliefs or lifestyle. The thing that seems to be denied is that Christians are.

I disagree about both statements you made in regards to the Christian views of homosexuality and Creation. But I would never say you or anyone else who holds those views are ignorant because of them.

i think there are many, many christians, both on FYM and in the US, who would object to your calling homophobia and creationism as "Christian" views. there are many christians who love their gay brothers and sisters and who don't see evolution as incompatible with Christianity. i'm sure they don't want you speaking for them on these topics, or to assume that your views are the default view held by all Christians. there's lots of diversity and disagreement within Christianity, and i've learned just how irritated many christians get when Politican Christians -- like Robertson, Falwell, Dobson, etc. -- claim to know "true" Christianity and then purport to speak for anyone who celebrates Christmas.
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Old 12-11-2004, 08:29 AM   #73
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i think there are many, many christians, both on FYM and in the US, who would object to your calling homophobia and creationism as "Christian" views. there are many christians who love their gay brothers and sisters and who don't see evolution as incompatible with Christianity. i'm sure they don't want you speaking for them on these topics, or to assume that your views are the default view held by all Christians. there's lots of diversity and disagreement within Christianity, and i've learned just how irritated many christians get when Politican Christians -- like Robertson, Falwell, Dobson, etc. -- claim to know "true" Christianity and then purport to speak for anyone who celebrates Christmas.
Jesus's message regarding poverty, love, forgiveness so far outweighs everything else "Christian", it infuruates me no end to see evolution/creationism or gay marriage/constitutional amendments as the "core issues" as espoused by so many Christian groups. Yes, I'm a repetitive SOB, but I'll say it again, the Bible has more references to helping the poor than on any other topic.


Again, look at the Rev Jim Wallis's site, www.sojo.net, to see, what in my not-so-humble opinion are the topics Christians should be focusing on:

Fairness, helping the poor, fair trade, debt relief, getting out of Iraq, the death penalty etc. Do these topics sound familiar ?

Read the transcript of the Meet the press episode where he and Falwell are being interviewed jointly, see how far apart many of us from the Falwells of the world. Falwell is like my daughter sometimes, she'll have a huge History project due and will spend 80% of her time making a nice cover for it rather than focusing on the content where most of the marks are given.

Yes, homosexuality is biblically incorrect, but FORGIVENESS is how it should be approached, not condemnation. Report came out a couple of days ago about how 1B children are in poverty and at risk, isn't THAT where christian/Non-Christian alike should focus rather than whinging/fighting about gay marriage, courtroom ten commandment battles, pledge of allegiance? The ACLU and Jerry Falwell both have a lot of money and resources at their disposal, what if.....ah, I've woken up in a way too idealistic mood...........



Aaaaaggghhhhhhhhh!!!!!!
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Old 12-11-2004, 11:37 AM   #74
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there was a huge gay marriage thread in FYM, and i suggest you take a look at that.

the only think i'll say is that you are completely wrong about marriage as a religous concept. it is a legal and financial arrangement where you get some 1,049 tax breaks that are unavailable to tax paying gay citizens. no one is talking about forcing any church to recognize gay marriage -- though i'm sure some gladly will -- they are talking about legal recognition for their status as a committed adult couple, and all the legal things that come with it: hospital visitation rights and decision making, inheritance, adoption, shared health plans, etc.

and i'm sorry: the mean-spirited FMA is both unnecessary and really, really nasty. how dare anyone attempt to write a minority out of the constitution simply because of their religious beliefs.

this, my dear, is persecution.
The only reason it is a legal and financial arrangement is because the government somewhere along the long stuck their noses in it. That is the point that I am making, the government should have no say so in it whatsoever.

I really don't need to bother with looking at the thread you mentioned, seeing as how I have had countless discussion on the @u2 forum about it back about a month ago, making me fully aware of the oppossing views.
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Old 12-11-2004, 11:49 AM   #75
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The only reason it is a legal and financial arrangement is because the government somewhere along the long stuck their noses in it. That is the point that I am making, the government should have no say so in it whatsoever.

so atheists, agnostics, and those that don't choose to practice their religion in a church or temple should not be able to get married? Christians have ownership over marriage?

strikes me as the height of arrogance.
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