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Old 12-10-2004, 01:32 PM   #46
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Originally posted by cardosino
However even in Baptist groups, a lot of good is done in terms of AIDS/Africa, but that's not very newsworthy.......
Yeah, that's probably one thing to consider, too-there's tons of religious people who do really nice things for others out there, but sadly, our news programs decide to focus on all the bad aspects of religion-the fighting, the killing, the discrimination that some religious people express-rather than the good 'cause it's more newsworthy, and so sadly it makes religious people in general look bad, when really it's only a few morons that are acting horrible. Not saying we shouldn't alert people to those out there who are committing awful crimes in the name of religion, 'cause we can't stop it if we don't hear about it, but we should also hear about the good stuff religious people do, too. I had a friend back in Iowa who was a Christian, and she was one of the sweetest people you could ever meet. She would've helped the poor in a heartbeat, I know she would've. And I know some religious people here that are very kind-hearted souls, too.

Also, people like Falwell, Robertson, and them, quite frankly, scare the hell out of me (heh, no pun intended...).

Angela
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Old 12-10-2004, 01:32 PM   #47
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I can understand that too, but there are more reference to the poor in the Bible than almost any other subject, and I think you'll find that many think THAT is what should be focused on.
.......

on this, i think we can all agree.

i do think you make an interesting point about U2 -- i've described this forum to non-fan (or, at least non-fanatical like me) individuals as "P.C. cause-heads meet fundamentalist Christians." yes, i'm being funny, but there's some truth to that. U2 is known for religion and politics, and while one certainly fuels the other in Bono's head and heart, it's not often the same for his fans. i also think Bono (now, at least, since he's much smarter now than in the 80s, i think) rejects Christians who resist modernity just as much as he rejects peaceniks who think all we need is love and a daisy in a soldier's rifle

oh well.

we're one but we're not the same, aren't we?
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Old 12-10-2004, 02:23 PM   #48
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Originally posted by cardosino


My church, saddleback in Orange county, has given hundreds of thousands, if not millions of $$ in aid to African AIDS clinics, and routinely sends in volunteer teams. to help out, and lobbies actively even up to the George Bush level for support of debt relief and help for AIDS clinics (the head pastor is very influential, he has spoken abotu helping the poor on Dateline, Larry King, etc )

So, I guess you are maybe speaking for one or two christians, as opposed to hundreds of millions of them?

Way to make ignorant sweeping generalizations.
I'm glad your church is doing this more need to be doing this, but the sad thing is they aren't.


Quote:
But the wonderful work you refer to is indeed tossed ignorantly by the wayside when most non-Christians in here discuss Christians.
If you are assuming I'm not a Christian because I speak the way I do you are absolutely wrong.

You asked me a question and I answered it. Any Christian in the US who thinks they are being persecuted is completely ignorant of what true persecution is. When I hear churches bitch about the courthouses, gay marriage, etc it makes my blood boil because one they have no place in these juridictions and two because they aren't doing enough "back home". Yes churches do a lot in this country I'm not denying that. But they aren't doing nearly enough. Trust me I've been to churches all over the country.

I'm not speaking for one or two. So be careful with your attacks.
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Old 12-10-2004, 03:17 PM   #49
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Please give me an example of how Christians are persecuted here in the states? I'm very curious.
Hiya BVS,

I kinda answered this in a different post actually.

There are different levels of persecution. Verbal, physical, mental etc. The backlash against Christianity in the media, in the arts, and on online forums even, would be more or less verbal. It is perecution nonetheless. It does not however compare in anyway of course to what Christians in China endure on a daily basis.

I will for the record paste the actual definition of the word....

One entry found for persecute.


Main Entry: per·se·cute
Pronunciation: 'p&r-si-"kyüt
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -cut·ed; -cut·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French persecuter, back-formation from persecuteur persecutor, from Late Latin persecutor, from persequi to persecute, from Latin, to pursue, from per- through + sequi to follow -- more at SUE
1 : to harass in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict; specifically : to cause to suffer because of belief
2 : to annoy with persistent or urgent approaches (as attacks, pleas, or importunities) : PESTER

I have to say, that the second definition would certainly apply to Christians here in the States.

Do you not see that as true? Honestly?

Take care,

Carrie
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Old 12-10-2004, 03:25 PM   #50
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Originally posted by thacraic


Hiya BVS,

I kinda answered this in a different post actually.

There are different levels of persecution. Verbal, physical, mental etc. The backlash against Christianity in the media, in the arts, and on online forums even, would be more or less verbal. It is perecution nonetheless. It does not however compare in anyway of course to what Christians in China endure on a daily basis.

I will for the record paste the actual definition of the word....

One entry found for persecute.


Main Entry: per·se·cute
Pronunciation: 'p&r-si-"kyüt
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -cut·ed; -cut·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French persecuter, back-formation from persecuteur persecutor, from Late Latin persecutor, from persequi to persecute, from Latin, to pursue, from per- through + sequi to follow -- more at SUE
1 : to harass in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict; specifically : to cause to suffer because of belief
2 : to annoy with persistent or urgent approaches (as attacks, pleas, or importunities) : PESTER

I have to say, that the second definition would certainly apply to Christians here in the States.

Do you not see that as true? Honestly?

Take care,

Carrie
Sorry that's laughable. Where's the media or the arts persecuting Christianity? Just don't see it.
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Old 12-10-2004, 03:57 PM   #51
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


I'm glad your church is doing this more need to be doing this, but the sad thing is they aren't.

So that makes it OK to tar all Christians with the same brush ?

How much do Christians help vs. Jewish organizations ? Gay organizations ? Latino organizations ? etc.

I don't know either !

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


If you are assuming I'm not a Christian because I speak the way I do you are absolutely wrong.

I didn't assume anything.

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


You asked me a question and I answered it. Any Christian in the US who thinks they are being persecuted is completely ignorant of what true persecution is.

Mind-boggling !

There are Christians in the US who have coem from all walks of life, and all parts of the world. My old next door neigbor escaped persecution in Lebanon - How can you possibly say every christian in the US doesn't knwo about persecution ?


Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

When I hear churches bitch about the courthouses, gay marriage, etc it makes my blood boil because one they have no place in these jurisdictions

They have as much say as the next person

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

and two because they aren't doing enough "back home".

Agreed. The Bible says more abotu helping the poor than any other single subject, and yet these radicals get all bent out of shape about stem cell research and other tangentially relevant items to their faith.

Fix the big stuff, then move on to the relatively trivial



Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

Yes churches do a lot in this country I'm not denying that. But they aren't doing nearly enough. Trust me I've been to churches all over the country.

I'm not speaking for one or two. So be careful with your attacks.
Ditto. When you choose to attack a group of people which is hundreds of million in number, you might want to sharpen the focus a wee bit.
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Old 12-10-2004, 04:17 PM   #52
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Sorry that's laughable. Where's the media or the arts persecuting Christianity? Just don't see it.

Laughable? Come on now. I have steered clear of using that word many times in my responses. I may have let it slip once possibly? But I have really tried not to use it, even though there have been MANY cases in which I could have.

You mean to tell me that when you see Christians stating their views on things they are not made out to be biggots, or morons?
You think that Christians characters on television and in film are not potrayed in a manner which is completely misleading and and nowhere close to what and who REAL Chirstians are?

Furthermore, all entertainment aside, in the real world, traditional Christian views on homosexuality elicit the label homophobic hate monger. A traditional Christian view on the origins of the world elicits the label, ignorant backwoods moron. A traditonal Christian view on ANYTHING pretty much elicits labels and remarks that ARE by definition PERSECUTION.

Christians are made out to be foolish, ignorant intolerant people in song, film and television. If you don't see it I don't know what you are looking at.

At any rate we are are off to buy a Christmas tree...

Take care,

Carrie
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Old 12-10-2004, 04:33 PM   #53
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Sorry that's laughable. Where's the media or the arts persecuting Christianity? Just don't see it.
Perhaps you have become numb to it. Jesus is mentioned in the media (television & movies especially) all the time. Guess what percentage of those uses comply with the 3rd Commandment.

We are oversensatized to offending certain groups. But when it comes to respecting something reveared by the Christian, it's like slaughtering the pig on the alter.
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Old 12-10-2004, 05:33 PM   #54
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So that makes it OK to tar all Christians with the same brush ?
I think you are being a little too sensitive. No one is tarring anyone. I merely said that churches in general, including myself, need to step it up and quit wasting their time with gay marriage and the sorts.


Quote:
Originally posted by cardosino

How much do Christians help vs. Jewish organizations ? Gay organizations ? Latino organizations ? etc.

I don't know either !
Who cares, this isn't a contest we are not to judge ourselves in accordance with others. Don't pull moral supremecy, you are just making it easier for someone to laugh at Christianity.




Quote:
Originally posted by cardosino


Mind-boggling !

There are Christians in the US who have coem from all walks of life, and all parts of the world. My old next door neigbor escaped persecution in Lebanon - How can you possibly say every christian in the US doesn't knwo about persecution ?
Read my quote again. I said Christians in the US who really think we're being persecuted don't know what true persecution is.

I'm sure that your neigbor really knowing what true persecution is would never claim that Christians here in the states are persecuted. Your neighbor in fact would probably very much agree with me.

Quote:
Originally posted by cardosino


They have as much say as the next person
What do they have a say in? To place momunments of their religion in a public courthouse, to make a ban on gay marriage? No they don't we have separation of church and state. Adultery is a sin but for some reason they aren't pushing for that ammendment, hmmmm I wonder why?
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Old 12-10-2004, 05:34 PM   #55
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i'm sorry, perhaps we're all on different planets, but for christians to feel persecuted or lampooned by the media ... all i can say is welcome. we all feel that way. i think anyone who has a large stake in whatever "group" they choose to affiliate with and then form the basis of much of their identity on that is bound to be offended at some point. and, sorry, due to the power structure in this country where white, male, christians are in charge (and have ALWAYS been in charge), i don't think the discomfort some christians feel at being portrayed as backwards and anti-modern -- though, especialy when it comes to gender, sexuality, and orientation i'd argue that those lables are deserved for *some* christians -- please don't think for a moment it compares to what african-americans, latinos, gays, foreigners, or the French have to endure and have had to endure since, well, forever.

we're all sensitive to being lampooned, but we all should have a sense of humor about these things and pick and choose our battles well.

and remember: the Christians ARE in charge in this country. imagine if you weren't.
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Old 12-10-2004, 05:35 PM   #56
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or, perhaps the fact that this is, supposedly, a secular liberal democracy makes it, by definition, offensive to Christians.

so be it.
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Old 12-10-2004, 05:43 PM   #57
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You mean to tell me that when you see Christians stating their views on things they are not made out to be biggots, or morons?
You think that Christians characters on television and in film are not potrayed in a manner which is completely misleading and and nowhere close to what and who REAL Chirstians are?
For every Flanders there's a 7th Heaven. Every race, religion, sex, etc has their stereotypes and their good characters on TV. No one is singling out Christians. Please.
Quote:
Originally posted by thacraic

Furthermore, all entertainment aside, in the real world, traditional Christian views on homosexuality elicit the label homophobic hate monger. A traditional Christian view on the origins of the world elicits the label, ignorant backwoods moron. A traditonal Christian view on ANYTHING pretty much elicits labels and remarks that ARE by definition PERSECUTION.

Christians are made out to be foolish, ignorant intolerant people in song, film and television. If you don't see it I don't know what you are looking at.

Because some are. Some are foolish, some are filled with hate. Believe me, I've met them and it sickens me that they represent what I believe in. If Christians would stand up and get the Faldwells off of TV maybe we'd get somewhere. But then you have Billy Grahm who's very respected.

Once again every group has their points of attack. No one is singling you out. This is not persecution. Having people that don't believe in what you believe is not persecution. Try being Muslim in the US right now. Try being gay right now. Christianity is the safest religion to be in the US, we're not under any kind of persecution.
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Old 12-10-2004, 05:45 PM   #58
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Perhaps you have become numb to it. Jesus is mentioned in the media (television & movies especially) all the time. Guess what percentage of those uses comply with the 3rd Commandment.

We are oversensatized to offending certain groups. But when it comes to respecting something reveared by the Christian, it's like slaughtering the pig on the alter.
A little over dramatic aren't we? Can you give me some examples, because I'm not seeing it. Or maybe you are right, maybe I've become numb. But maybe if you were to give me an example I'd understand where you are coming from.
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Old 12-10-2004, 08:43 PM   #59
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

Adultery is a sin but for some reason they aren't pushing for that ammendment, hmmmm I wonder why?
Good point. This is a topic worth discussing on it's own. Maybe we should have a thread....
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Old 12-10-2004, 09:01 PM   #60
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


For every Flanders there's a 7th Heaven. Every race, religion, sex, etc has their stereotypes and their good characters on TV. No one is singling out Christians. Please.


Because some are. Some are foolish, some are filled with hate. Believe me, I've met them and it sickens me that they represent what I believe in. If Christians would stand up and get the Faldwells off of TV maybe we'd get somewhere. But then you have Billy Grahm who's very respected.

Once again every group has their points of attack. No one is singling you out. This is not persecution. Having people that don't believe in what you believe is not persecution. Try being Muslim in the US right now. Try being gay right now. Christianity is the safest religion to be in the US, we're not under any kind of persecution.
Some "are" but the problem is, ALL are made to look like the some. That is kinda the POINT that was being made.

Of course people not believing the same as me or other Christians
isn't persecution! What kind of statement is that?

I talk to a friend of mine from Saudi Arabia daily, and when he and I discuss matters of faith, he doesn't attack me for believing as I do, nor I him. We obviously disagree on many things but we do not attack each other for our individual beliefs. That is because we engage in discourse. Now if I were to rip into him and say he was a total moron for thinking Jesus was merely a prophet and then begin mocking him that would be a form of VERBAL persecution (according to the actual definition) and I would safely say it would end our friendship.

Another thing, my daughter's friend is a Muslim and she was over for dinner the other night. After dinner, she was going to her church as she calls it, and was telling us about her faith. She had no fear of saying anything. Her mother has never mentioned feeling persecuted for her beliefs either. Also, a Jordanian friend of mine has never had problems since he moved here about a month before Sept. 11, 2001. He has never once had a word said to him about his religious beliefs or his ethnic origin. He "lovvvvvvvvves this country", as he would say.

I would say that in the time that I have known my Jordanian friend and my Indian Muslim friend, I have recieved more criticism, and personal attacks of my beliefs than they have of their's. So your theory that Muslims are being persecuted in this country and Christian are not , holds very little water with me in terms of my personal experiences.
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