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Old 12-14-2004, 07:44 PM   #136
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Originally posted by cardosino


What is the greater threat to our world today ? Jihad, which is expressly allowed in one religion, or gay marriage ? Just a thought. You may return to regularly scheduled bickering.

:-)
If you ever took a debate class they'd tear you up if you responded like this, it's a flawed argument. First you are comparing two entirely different subjects, religions, and geographic area that hold no correlations. Secondly you've already flawed the second sentence by twisting the facts that one whole religion allows Jihad when in fact it's only a fundalmentalist portion of a religion. Thirdly it has absolutely nothing to do with the original or the even fairly diverted form of debate going on in this thread.
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Old 12-14-2004, 07:49 PM   #137
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Fundamentalist means that you follow the teachings of the religion strictly, to this Islam does permit violence against kafirs and apostates, there are many portions of the quran that are specificly related to this end. Jihad was and is an important part of Islam, it is the mechanism of which Islam spread throughout the world; conquest and subjegation were the name of the game for a young up and coming religion and it suceeded very well. This is not much different from the way that other religions throughout history have risen to prominence but the willfull ignorance of this in many quarters is staggering.

To the fundamentalists there are Muslims; people who will kill, conquer and maim the unbelievers and apostates (those who claim to be of the Muslim faith but do not engage in or support Jihad etc.). It would be an assumption to say that very few in the world support such propositions.
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Old 12-14-2004, 07:56 PM   #138
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I think that the rise of radical Islam over the last century and the decline of Christianity is a very important one. It should not be used as a moral compass but when it comes to the influence of each religion I must say that Christianity is looking weak and most churches can barely control their own followers without condemnation from society. It is a pity really, I am no fan of Christianity but it's logical replacement is truly scary.
Well what you said really nails it, in regards to most churches not being able to control (or hold onto maybe?) their own congregations. The fear of being viewed as rigid, unloving, and intolerant by society has caused many of them to disregard tradtional teachings (which those teachings in essence do not in anyway advocate hate or intolerance) in favor of teaching a more relative approach to Biblical truths. Relativism has no place in the Christian philosiphy yet in recent years you can see it running rampant.

At any rate, my point all along has been, that people which embrace traditional Christians views, either personally or collectively (as in churches as a whole) are persecuted i.e ridiculed, mocked, and scorned for believing as they do.

And yes the thought of Islam replacing Christianity should be a scary thought to some, because according to Muslim friends of mine us Christians are quite liberal thinkers, even the traditional ones like myself.
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Old 12-14-2004, 08:05 PM   #139
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Fundamentalist means that you follow the teachings of the religion strictly, to this Islam does permit violence against kafirs and apostates, there are many portions of the quran that are specificly related to this end. Jihad was and is an important part of Islam, it is the mechanism of which Islam spread throughout the world; conquest and subjegation were the name of the game for a young up and coming religion and it suceeded very well. This is not much different from the way that other religions throughout history have risen to prominence but the willfull ignorance of this in many quarters is staggering.

To the fundamentalists there are Muslims; people who will kill, conquer and maim the unbelievers and apostates (those who claim to be of the Muslim faith but do not engage in or support Jihad etc.). It would be an assumption to say that very few in the world support such propositions.
Well if you are going define it like that you can say that about a few other religions for they too had a period of interpreting their words the same way. But you are still narrowing and defining the whole religion like that and it's simply not how it's taught and practiced throughout the world. But without debating another religion in this thread the point is that the religion as a whole does not expressingly allow Jihad.

But this is all beside the point.
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Old 12-14-2004, 08:09 PM   #140
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Originally posted by thacraic


Well what you said really nails it, in regards to most churches not being able to control (or hold onto maybe?) their own congregations. The fear of being viewed as rigid, unloving, and intolerant by society has caused many of them to disregard tradtional teachings (which those teachings in essence do not in anyway advocate hate or intolerance) in favor of teaching a more relative approach to Biblical truths. Relativism has no place in the Christian philosiphy yet in recent years you can see it running rampant.


But can't you say that about every generation before us? How far back will we have to go to rid ourselves of "relativism"? The first Christians to worship under the first printed Bible probaby would feel you are far too relative.
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Old 12-14-2004, 08:10 PM   #141
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I am saying that the religious texts themselves advocate this; as for the way that the religion is taught it is fair to say that most Muslims are law abiding individuals no better than you or I and that the religion is taught in a satisfactory manner in a lot of places with a lot of diversity in belief and practice with a wide variety of strains - but on the flipside there is definitely a number of people who teach the religion in a literal sense and encourage violence and these aspects of the religion and many places in the Islamic world are examples of this. As I mentioned there is willfull ignorance to the prospect that there is something seriously fucked up with theology in certain sections of the Islamic world, Wahabism, Deoband, some groups belonging to the Javanese Santri Islam the Muslim Brotherhood organisation - there are elements within all of these fundamentalist groups that advocate violence against the unbelievers and they are carrying on a tradition that has existed for centuries, still fighting the crusaders in their minds so when I am told to just accept statements as truth such as "Jihad is simply the inner struggle for betterment for yourself in the name of Allah" then I get a little bit suspicious; certainly most Muslims see it as that having moved beyond the archaic context of Jihad but there are those who will follow it to the letter and they are dangerous.
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Old 12-14-2004, 08:15 PM   #142
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I am saying that the religious texts themselves advocate this; as for the way that the religion is taught it is fair to say that most Muslims are law abiding individuals no better than you or I and that the religion is taught in a satisfactory manner in a lot of places - but on the flipside there is definitely a number of people who teach the religion in a literal sense and encourage violence and these aspects of the religion and many places in the Islamic world are examples of this.
Well I admit I have not the original scripts or interpretations of these religious texts therefore I'll step away from saying what their original intents were.
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Old 12-14-2004, 08:35 PM   #143
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I suggest that you spend some time reading about them, there are plenty of translations out there.
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Old 12-14-2004, 08:38 PM   #144
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I suggest that you spend some time reading about them, there are plenty of translations out there.
Yes and so far the little I've done(whenever these debates come about) I've found conflicting evidence. When I have more time I will.
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Old 12-14-2004, 08:46 PM   #145
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Originally posted by indra


Do I criticise Christianity? Duh, of course, I criticise many things, including Christianity (especially certain versions of it). I hope you do too...in fact I would be disappointed if you didn't criticise Christianity. To be able to fix what's wrong (with anything), you first must realise and accept that there are problems...and everything has problems.

I guess I just do not understand what you and AcrobatMan consider bashing.... To me it appears to be any criticism at all...and that's a pretty low threshold.
Hiya Indra,

There is nothing wrong with Christianity. It is right in every way. I do not know why anyone who was a follower of it would criticize it. The problem lies not with it anyway, but with some of its followers.

Some use Scripture to promote, for example, hatered and division towards minorities (various groups, not just races), others use it to promote, for example, accpetance of EVERYthing just in the name of Love. Both extremes are a pervesion of the Truth and a stain on the name of Christ. Bashing comes in when the people in the middle (standing at the center of the Truth) are made out to be extremist lunatics or backwoods morons sheerly for believing in a traditional way. Repeated derogatory statements in regards to someone's lack of intelligence or mental state because of their beliefs would fall in line with the definition of persecution.

In terms of the media's roll in it an example would be how Mel Gibson was treated when The Passion was released here in the States. The media tried everything to make him out to be a fanatic bordering on lunacy. His "extreme orthodox" views were constantly being picked apart, mocked and attacked. The media even went so far as to exploit Gibson's father ( who from what I saw of it was a bit nutty but he is older than dirt and at his age you have a right to be nuts and grumpy and wear the waist of your pants up to your chest) all over his traditional Christian views. We saw what happened of course. Mel's career is in no danger and the movie mad a gazillion dollars, but it still does not change the fact that he was persecuted for his beliefs.

I hope this shed some light on how I view (A FORM OF)persecution of an individual or further still a group of people.

Take care,

Carrie
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Old 12-14-2004, 08:50 PM   #146
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I think that criticism of religion from a believer is important, to stand by silently if evil is being comitted is not good. There is plenty of things wrong with Christianity, the old guard running the show, the bullshit that is spouted by the nutjobs at every opportunity, the ignorance run by the creationist movement trying to shove religion into the science classroom, the protests agains the concept of secularism etc.
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Old 12-14-2004, 09:07 PM   #147
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


But can't you say that about every generation before us? How far back will we have to go to rid ourselves of "relativism"? The first Christians to worship under the first printed Bible probaby would feel you are far too relative.
Hiya BVS,

Relativism has slowly seeped its way into the Christian belief for hundreds of years. If the Christians under the first printed Bible believed the same as those who were around before the first printed Bible then I don't think I would be accused of following a relativist form of Christianity. Look at the the letters written to the early church in the New Testament. We have the closest translations of them from the earliest known manuscripts so it is safe to say it was the same message then as it is now.

It is the modern relative twist on things that is trying to change how Scripture is viewed and that same relativism and those who subscibe to it denounce those who embrace the abolute view of Christianity.

Take care,
Carrie
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Old 12-14-2004, 09:13 PM   #148
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I think that criticism of religion from a believer is important, to stand by silently if evil is being comitted is not good. There is plenty of things wrong with Christianity, the old guard running the show, the bullshit that is spouted by the nutjobs at every opportunity, the ignorance run by the creationist movement trying to shove religion into the science classroom, the protests agains the concept of secularism etc.
I think criticizing a belief system and criticizing its followers would be two different things.

Now having said that, to launch attacks against someone strictly for their beliefs is one thing. But people who are clearly not in line with what is at the center of that belief system should be called on their behavoir. You gave some great examples of cases in which certain behavoir should be addressed.
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Old 12-14-2004, 09:42 PM   #149
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Originally posted by thacraic


Hiya BVS,

Relativism has slowly seeped its way into the Christian belief for hundreds of years. If the Christians under the first printed Bible believed the same as those who were around before the first printed Bible then I don't think I would be accused of following a relativist form of Christianity. Look at the the letters written to the early church in the New Testament. We have the closest translations of them from the earliest known manuscripts so it is safe to say it was the same message then as it is now.

It is the modern relative twist on things that is trying to change how Scripture is viewed and that same relativism and those who subscibe to it denounce those who embrace the abolute view of Christianity.

Take care,
Carrie
Have you ever worked on the Sabbath? Worn a veil in Church? Are you of the original Catholic church or a denomination that broke off from this church?

It's all relative.
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Old 12-14-2004, 10:06 PM   #150
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Originally posted by Angela Harlem
Phew, glad this is sorted

I have to try and be really quick as I'm sneaking the net at work and I only temp here so it's technically stealing resources..

Ok, so Christianity aims to promote love, acceptance, and not judging. Which is great, unless you are a homosexual. Or other things, but we're all on about sexuality at the moment. People say it's not exclusionary, but it is. Ask a homosexual Christian how he or she feels. I dont get how people who are supposedly caring and good people can allow this to fester. They dont seem to want to change it, so their inaction is seeming like an embracing of these views which are causing hurt and pain to so many. In the name of God. Like any of us have a bloody clue what God's will is, or who He'd like to see married. It's this fostering of seperation and judgement which really leaves me cold. Too often we see people preening themselves over their righteous path and the like, but what the fuck is so righteous and admirable about such lack of compassion and acceptance?

I explained/ranted a bit further back about it, if you're interested.

Ok Angela gotcha! I see what you are questioning now (I think? lol) And hope you didn't get busted for being online!

Why do Christians promote love of everyone yet stand up against things that would cause other people to feel ostracized? Well simply put, the Bible tells us to do both, kinda . I say kinda because God's aim is not for us to ostracize, but if it comes down to standing on what He says and people do not like it then, there is nothing much to be done. But we are commanded to love each other no question in that at all. First love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, mind, etc , and second to love each other as you love yourself.

Now, loving God covers a lot of ground but for the sake of discussion I will point out one way Christians can show they love God - following the Bible and stating the truths within it. Traditional Christians say the Bible is God's word and we believe everything that is in it to be infallable, inerrant and God-breathed (inspired by His life breath). There have been many times in my life that I wished it didn't say some things were wrong, but it is not about me and what I want from God, it is about God and what He wants from me. His Word is given to us because He knows what we are capable of (from the worst to the best) and His word gives us an understanding of who He is and what He wants of us.

Now as for loving people, we love people because God loves us. Love is not an natural human state of mind - not true love, not real love, not the love God is talking about when He tells us to love one another. That love is only possible through God and a life abundant in His Truth.

Also, loving people by the way does not mean saying that what they are doing is ok. I love my kids but if they throw my cordless phone into the toilet and state is a new scientific discovery in boyancy (not in so many words, but they did say it was a science experiment) they are going to get told that what they did was wrong. Further still they are going to get a punishment that fits their crime, so to speak.

In terms of giving you personal opinions I do have many on a wide variety of things, but if you ask a Christian to tell you what they think yet tell them not to use the Bible, you are not asking for a Christian repsonse, but for a personal non-biblical one.

Personally I could care less what anyone choses to do in his or her life. God has given everyone choices. He did not give those of us who follow Him the right to take them away. That is the design behind free will, and He is the one that set that into action.

Now it does concern me that there is a world full unsaved people out there, and that is the an URGENT matter, and any way God can use me to reach them I am game for.

I do hope this helped?

Take care,

Carrie
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