Is it possible?

[MrsSpringsteen]

come on deep, that's a bit disrespectful

 

[80sU2isBest]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Is it possible?

This is great news for you.

Forget about the celibacy.

Go for it.

Sex is great!

You will be glad you did.

And you are already forgiven.


Katie bar the door

take the phone off the hook,

pull down the shades

and let it rip.

Just because a Christian is forgiven doesn't mean he/she can commit any kind of sin and "get away with it". As I have said in a previous post , Christians have a new nature and this nature drives them to want to be in God's will and to not want to sin. If I met someone who claimed to be a Christian yet has the attitude you present, I wouldn't be so sure that person ever really gave himself to Christ.

To address the issue of if Christians "get away with it", the answer is no. Though he forvies their sin, God also disciplines his children.

 

[80sU2isBest]

come on deep, that's a bit disrespectful

Thanks, Mrs. S
I thought it was a bit disrespectful, also, especially considering that this thread is someone asking for spiritual advice and that people, like you, me, coemgen and others are trying to help by giving our opinion.
Thanks for "getting my back" so much lately. It means a lot to me, it really does.
Mike

 

[Teta040]

Coemgen.

"you have to go to church to be forgiven"? This sounds like a Catholic talking (are you Catholic)? Assuming that in order to be forgiven by God, you first have to go through the intermediary of the Church. Ie, you can't be forgiven by God unless God's appointed rep tells Him first.

Of course that's not Biblical. The Armenian Chruch takes a curious stance on this. It is adamantly opposed to the Catholic rirual of "confession"--for the very reasons you have said: it isn't biblical. (As a side note, I shoukd mention that as a state institution--ie as being the official religion of a State, tough people of hs are freeto practice there--The Armenian Chruch is technically 13 yrs older than the Catholic Chruch. The Armenian KIng proclaimed Chrisianity the offical religion in 301 AD..Constantine converted in 314, but anyway, that' another story.

I shoul also tell you that ts in the Armenian Chruch are not only allowed but encouraged to marry. The priest's wife, literally, "Yeretzgin"--that's what the word means and that's her title--the wife of the pastor is known as "Yeretzgin Lisa" or "Yeretzgin Maria" or whatever--has a very important role to play in the local congregation, perhaps even more so than in Protestant denominations. And often she' community leader in her own right. (I'm seriously thinking of going to her to start a local "One" group--I'm warring my wristband from Saturday's show, and have done dome emiling of Senators etc.) It's only if you are thinking of becoming someone poerful in the Church, like Bishop you have to remain single and take a celibacy vow.

ANYWAY, confession. The Churh is very individualistic about things like this. Surprisingly, it allows a lot of discretion to the individual. The attitude is, IF you feel the need to confess to someone in the church, there is no way to do it except by making a generic confession before the congregation...don't tewll what your sin is, but on;y let them know you sinned. There is no one-on-one with a preist in private. But you arenot taught in SUnday school (Like Catholics are) that confession is a requirement. You can either confess before a priest, but you are also encouraged to have a private, personal relationship with God.

THe church allows adult baptisms, and at an adult baptism, you are also given an absolution. You are cleansed of sin entering the church. A lot of emphasis is placed on fellowship and prayer. I think this lax or conflicting attitude is a lingering legacy of centuries of persecution and oppression. On the one hand, during such periods, like the oppression of the Turks, when there was no Armenian government the Church became the government. Thus, the need for public ritual and communion.But the other hand, the Chruch deliberately did not want to become like other denominations. Catholics. SO they allowed a lot of doctrinal freedom. A person was encouraged to read the Bible and commune with God privately. This for situations where priests had been killed or there was no local pastor or congregation.

For example, if one is in danger of death, and there is no priest around, any one person is free to give another person last rites. THis can be as simple as making the sign of the Cross over their foreead and reciting your own version of a blessing.

IN short, while the Church is set up around striuct doctrinal lines, circumstances allow for it to be flezible. The individual is given a surprsing amount of frredom. The downside, though, is that the old chruch was very male-oriented. A lot of woemn have left.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Thanks for "getting my back" so much lately. It means a lot to me, it really does.

You're welcome, I just wish things to be a bit more respectful in here sometimes.

Actually I thought it was VERY disrespectful but I was trying to be nice There's no need to mock someone's beliefs about something as personal as celibacy/sex/whatever.

 

[coemgen]

Teta040, thanks for that. You answered my question.

 

[verte76]

verte76, I didn't mean to offend you with my post earlier. I hope it didn't come across wrong. I'm glad you don't see confession as something that you have to do to be forgiven. I disagree with us having to go through someone else to get to God. God doesn't want it that way. He wants a relationship with us. I'm not going to have a good relationship with my dad if I'm only talking to him through my mom, you know? While I don't agree with it in those terms, I do agree it's good to be held accountable. I'm just rambling thoughts here.

None taken, I just got concerned that maybe some people didn't understand where I was coming from. I don't want anyone to believe that I think the Church necessarily has to come between the God and the believer because in fact I do not. Maybe I'm not the most orthodox Catholic on the planet, but that's my belief.

 

[pax]

I'm getting to this kind of late, but I just wanted to make clear that I do think deep's comments were inappropriate.

Let's try to be more respectful of people's beliefs here.

Thanks.

 

[indra]

For example, if one is in danger of death, and there is no priest around, any one person is free to give another person last rites. THis can be as simple as making the sign of the Cross over their foreead and reciting your own version of a blessing.

From what I understand, this is also true in Catholicism.

 

[indra]

I'm getting to this kind of late, but I just wanted to make clear that I do think deep's comments were inappropriate.

Let's try to be more respectful of people's beliefs here.

Thanks.

Well, it might be rude, but what deep posted was what popped into my mind....

And I know many born again types who do exactly what deep posted about. Many see it as a free pass -- the "I can screw over anyone, 'cause I've been born again" idea.

 

[MissVelvetDress_75]

The last time I went to confession was in 1990 when I was on a church retreat.

 

[clarityat3am]

Well, it might be rude, but what deep posted was what popped into my mind....

And I know many born again types who do exactly what deep posted about. Many see it as a free pass -- the "I can screw over anyone, 'cause I've been born again" idea.

For the record, I don't see it that way. The only person I feel I've screwed over is myself and I'm trying to finally do something right with my life. Thanks for all the replies everyone. I really appreciate it. The past couple of months haven't been easy for me and it seems it's going to be a while before I feel completely better about my life right now. This is just a piece of the puzzle and I'm trying to understand it all and do it right this time.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Well, it might be rude, but what deep posted was what popped into my mind....

Why do I not doubt that you tought that about me? After all, I am the type of Christian that makes you want to vomit.

And I know many born again types who do exactly what deep posted about. Many see it as a free pass -- the "I can screw over anyone, 'cause I've been born again" idea.

They may seem like the born again "type" to you, but that doesn't mean they're "born again". The Bible says that many will say "Lord, Lord" and God will say "Depart from me...I never knew you". The Bible also says that Christians will be known by their fruit. As I said, their "I don't care" attitude toward sin and their refusal to repent isn't exactly the "fruit" by which Christians are known and indicates to me that they may not be sincere. Being born again changes a person. If there is no change, that says something to me.

By the way, what are you doing in this thread? This thread was started by someone asking for Christian advice. You don't even belong here if all you are going to do is go on another of your "Christians are bad because of x, y and z" tirades.

 

[80sU2isBest]

For the record, I don't see it that way. The only person I feel I've screwed over is myself and I'm trying to finally do something right with my life. Thanks for all the replies everyone. I really appreciate it. The past couple of months haven't been easy for me and it seems it's going to be a while before I feel completely better about my life right now. This is just a piece of the puzzle and I'm trying to understand it all and do it right this time.

Just put complete faith in Christ and trust that he will guide you. Listen for his voice speaking to your spirit, and you will hear it.

God loves you.

 

[melon]

For the record, I don't see it that way. The only person I feel I've screwed over is myself and I'm trying to finally do something right with my life. Thanks for all the replies everyone. I really appreciate it. The past couple of months haven't been easy for me and it seems it's going to be a while before I feel completely better about my life right now. This is just a piece of the puzzle and I'm trying to understand it all and do it right this time.

To get back to the original spirit of the thread, I think we can all agree that forgiveness is very inherent in Christianity. The fact that you do feel sorry about what you have done, I'm sure that God already knows. I wouldn't worry too much about receiving forgiveness if you're earnestly asking for it.

Melon

 

[BonosSaint]

Isn't that the point of grace?

 

[indra]

For the record, I don't see it that way. The only person I feel I've screwed over is myself and I'm trying to finally do something right with my life. Thanks for all the replies everyone. I really appreciate it. The past couple of months haven't been easy for me and it seems it's going to be a while before I feel completely better about my life right now. This is just a piece of the puzzle and I'm trying to understand it all and do it right this time.

Wasn't replying to your post. Never did think you screwed over anyone. Sorry if it seemed that way.

 

[Angela Harlem]

The last time I went to confession was in 1990 when I was on a church retreat.

I misread this as:
The last time I went to confession was in 1900 when I was on a church boat.
Relevant, aren't I?


This thread highlights perfectly, the whole guilt problem I have with religion. The God I believe in wants you to like yourself - admit your mistakes yes, and be sorry - but always recognise your value and worth alongside that Clarity. My God unfortunately doesn't have a following which has a known name and is therefore nonexistant, but whoever did create us all, gave us the ability to feel and know both love and sadness, and guilt and remorse, and I fully suspect he wishes us to use all of it. Not let one engulf us and take over our whole sense of ego.

 

[verte76]

I can understand why some people are turned off by the Church. I've seen people get so bogged down with legalism it's insane. My mother had a friend when I was a kid who was a Catholic. She had six children and then started to use birth control. She went nuts with guilt because she thought she was going to hell for using birth control. The upshot was that she saw a Catholic psychiatrist, and she was able to work out her difficulties. I have a friend at church who used birth control after four kids, and she didn't have any trouble with it. She continues to attend mass today, thirty years after her birth control experience. This is the way it should be, to me. To me, the teaching on birth control made sense in an earlier time when infant mortality in Europe was much higher than it is now. It used to be that if you had seven kids, two of them might grow up, the others would die of childhood diseases. Now with vaccines and penicillin and whatnot, it's a whole different ballgame, and the Church just hasn't caught up with it.

 

[coemgen]

Wow, I really like Melon and Angela Harlem's posts. You guys made some beautiful points.

 

[clarityat3am]

Wasn't replying to your post. Never did think you screwed over anyone. Sorry if it seemed that way.

No, I realize that. I was just clarifying in case anyone may have had that thought cross their mind. I think I've been here long enough for people to know that I'm not like that though.

 

[80sU2isBest]

The God I believe in wants you to like yourself - admit your mistakes yes, and be sorry - but always recognise your value and worth alongside that Clarity. My God unfortunately doesn't have a following which has a known name and is therefore nonexistant, but whoever did create us all, gave us the ability to feel and know both love and sadness, and guilt and remorse, and I fully suspect he wishes us to use all of it. Not let one engulf us and take over our whole sense of ego.

Your God sounds like Jesus - not the Jesus you may have seen portrayed by some members of teh church, but the Biblical Jesus who loved mankind so much that he willingly laid down his life so that anyone who follows him will be free from the powers of guilt and sin and death.

 

[Irvine511]

just my opinion, but the more i hear about the actual processes of salvation, the more cult-like it sounds.

just my opinion.

 

[coemgen]

Why do you say that?

 

[Irvine511]

repetition of statements, arguing over subtle differences, absolutist and romantic language, promise of rewards for holding highly specific beliefs, punishments for failure to ascribe to said specific beliefs, fear, guilt, shame ... all this seems really incidental to what actually matters.

 

[coemgen]

You're right. Actually, most of what you mentioned has nothing to do with Salvation — certainly not the repetition of statements, fear, guilt and shame.

The actual process of salvation is simply confessing sins, seeking forgiveness, acknowledging the work on the cross and the ressurrection and accepting Christ as lord of your life. That's it really.

 

[Irvine511]

i guess i also hear very vague phrases that simply don't have any meaning to me (not meaning *for* me, an important distinction).

what does it mean to "accept Christ as lord of your life"?

how do you accept? what do you accept?

what do we mean by Lord? what does a Lord do?

etc, etc.

i guess there seem to me to be so many empty phrases regarding the specifics of something like salvation, that my gut reaction is simply to walk away because it seems to have no basis in anything.

i also want to be clear that this is my personal, knee-jerk reaction, and i in no way mean to belittle anyone's faith -- i'm simply asking for clarity, and perhaps if i knew more about the specifics of the Bible i wouldn't have as many questions.

 

[80sU2isBest]

i guess i also hear very vague phrases that simply don't have any meaning to me (not meaning *for* me, an important distinction).

what does it mean to "accept Christ as lord of your life"?

how do you accept? what do you accept?

what do we mean by Lord? what does a Lord do?

etc, etc.

i guess there seem to me to be so many empty phrases regarding the specifics of something like salvation, that my gut reaction is simply to walk away because it seems to have no basis in anything.

i also want to be clear that this is my personal, knee-jerk reaction, and i in no way mean to belittle anyone's faith -- i'm simply asking for clarity, and perhaps if i knew more about the specifics of the Bible i wouldn't have as many questions.

Accepting Christ as Lord of Your Life means giving control to him. You see when a person becomes a Christian, the Holy Spirit moves in. And the Holy Spirit is there for a reason - to give the person strength, power, wisdom and just the gumption to keep on living. The Holy Spirit wants the Christian to rely on him, to listen for his words of guidance. When someone gives the Holy Spirit the "keys to the car" and let's HIm drive, that's accepting Christ as "Lord of your life".

You accept Christ as savior simply by admitting that you've sinned against God (and this is a general "you", indicative of everyone, not just Irvine511) and aksing for his forgiveness, believing that Christ is the Son of God/God in the flesh and that he died and rose to pay the price that sin demands. This is called being "redeemed". Then you follow Christ, trusing him to work in you and through you.

 

[Irvine511]

Accepting Christ as Lord of Your Life means giving control to him. You see when a person becomes a Christian, the Holy Spirit moves in. And the Holy Spirit is there for a reason - to give the person strength, power, wisdom and just the gumption to keep on living. The Holy Spirit wants the Christian to rely on him, to listen for his words of guidance. When someone gives the Holy Spirit the "keys to the car" and let's HIm drive, that's accepting Christ as "Lord of your life".

You accept Christ as savior simply by admitting that you've sinned against God (and this is a general "you", indicative of everyone, not just Irvine511) and aksing for his forgiveness, believing that Christ is the Son of God/God in the flesh and that he died and rose to pay the price that sin demands. This is called being "redeemed". Then you follow Christ, trusing him to work in you and through you.

how do i give control to Christ? i need specifics, i need to know the process, i need to know the results.

sorry, i don't buy that you can see the Holy Spirit -- whatever that is ... please, name it, identify it, classify it, etc. -- working through Christians because i know some self-proclaimed Christians who are genuinely awful people.

does one need the Holy Spirit for "strength, power, wisdom and just the gumption to keep on living"? i don't care about the HS, yet i'm totally fine with all this. and i can point out several billion people in the world who couldn't give a toss about the HS and seem to do just fine.

how do you know what the HS "wants"? is it a person with wants, but shouldn't God be beyond wants?

i feel like i could go on, but i think my point has been made ... it's all so vague, so empty, so able to be filled with only the meaning that i choose to put in there. if you tell me that you feel the HS, i really can't disprove that statement and i suppose i'd have to believe you because i couldn't prove you wrong. yet i don't think the burden of proof should be on me, it should be on the person who claims that the HS is working through them. seems like it's such an easy thing to claim, such an easy thing to "prove" if you're the only one who can "feel" it.

am i making sense? sorry ... this stuff is hard to write out and is easier to have the discussion in person.

and i mean all of these as pure questions, nothing rhetorical.

i simply don't know, and i don't claim to know anything more than anyone else. i'm just asking questions when they occur to me.

 

[coemgen]

Hey man, no problem. I understand where you're coming from. I can see why you think that.

You bring up some good questions. To accept Christ as lord of your life means you put your life in his hands. Remember, Christ was crucified, but he rose from the dead. He's still alive. It simply means going by his way, rather than ours. It's like the end of "Falling At Your Feet," (one of the best worship songs ever btw) when Bono sings "not my will, thy will." That's what it's about. Letting him lead you through life, rather than doing it on your own. There's also the saying "I must decrease, so He can increase." It's getting rid of pride and turning it into humility. You're seeking to be obedient to his commands, which we find in the Bible. His commands are for our own good anyway, as well as for the good of humanity.
If you look up the word Lord, it means "ruler, master." And this how we should see Christ. However, it doesn't end there. While he is my ruler and master, he's also like a loving friend. I know that sounds like some corny crap, but that's really how it is. More than anything, he wants a genuine relationship with us — including you. He died for us, it's just up to us to make the next move, and in a sense, die to ourselves for him.

Does that help explain things at all?