Is it naive...

[Macfistowannabe]

... to believe that the truth does not belong in the middle?


Here are two very different men who appear to agree on something.


"The hottest place in Hell is reserved for those who remain neutral in times of great moral conflict."

- Martin Luther King, Jr.


"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."

- Barry Goldwater

 

[BVS]

It's naive to think as humans we'll ever find absolute truth.

Trying to figure out where it is on a scale of left, right, or middle; just leads to blaming, pointing fingers, partisan bullshit, and posturing.

 

[AEON]

It's naive to think as humans we'll ever find absolute truth.

Is the condemnation of rape only partially true? Are there some cases where it is justified? Necessary?

What about racism?

 

[BVS]

Is the condemnation of rape only partially true? Are there some cases where it is justified? Necessary?

What about racism?

We all know rape and racism have many grays.

 

[martha]

Is the condemnation of rape only partially true? Are there some cases where it is justified? Necessary?

Are you really asking if rape is justified or necessary? Or the condemnation of it?

 

[martha]

We all know rape ... have many grays.

Not all of us know that. How do you know?

 

[Liesje]

... to believe that the truth does not belong in the middle?


Here are two very different men who appear to agree on something.


"The hottest place in Hell is reserved for those who remain neutral in times of great moral conflict."

- Martin Luther King, Jr.


"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."

- Barry Goldwater

Well, sometimes I think "the middle" is really synonymous with apathy, so in that sense, yes I think sometimes the middle is the worst place to be.

 

[BVS]

Not all of us know that. How do you know?

I mean rape and racism in the legal sense.

How many times has remorse turned into cries of rape?

How many times has someone in here said something racist, yet there are still many who supported it by saying it wasn't racist.

That's all I'm saying.

 

[AussieU2fanman]

"The hottest place in Hell is reserved for those who remain neutral in times of great moral conflict."

- Martin Luther King, Jr.

Does that mean what I think it means? That's the stupidest thing I've heard today, especially coming from such a prolific activist.
What I've learnt from histories great moral conflicts is that there are always two sides with niether demonstrating moral superiority over the other - hence taking sides to one which should by definition be 'good' is impossible and sitting on the fence (neutral) is the only place to be. (except with Germany, they're always bad )

 

[AEON]

Re: Re: Is it naive...

Does that mean what I think it means? That's the stupidest thing I've heard today, especially coming from such a prolific activist.
What I've learnt from histories great moral conflicts is that there are always two sides with niether demonstrating moral superiority over the other - hence taking sides to one which should by definition be 'good' is impossible and sitting on the fence (neutral) is the only place to be. (except with Germany, they're always bad )

There are numerous moral conflicts that one side definitely held moral superiority - Nazism, Spanish Inquisition, American Slavery, Khmer Rouge in Combodia, the Arminian genocide...

Sitting on the fence is the same as contributing to the problem.

 

[Liesje]

Re: Re: Is it naive...

Does that mean what I think it means? That's the stupidest thing I've heard today, especially coming from such a prolific activist.

Well, since he's an activist, why would he ever advocate fence-sitting?

 

[joyfulgirl]

A friend of mine says "the truth is what the opposites have in common." I come back to that again and again.

 

[BVS]

A friend of mine says "the truth is what the opposites have in common." I come back to that again and again.

I like that...

 

[AussieU2fanman]

Re: Re: Re: Is it naive...

Well, since he's an activist, why would he ever advocate fence-sitting?

even activists should acknowledge a grey area.

 

[Liesje]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Is it naive...

even activists should acknowledge a grey area.

I guess I'm not seeing how being apathetic/neutral/sitting your ass on the fence so you personally have no risk involved and dealing with gray areas are even remotely close to being the same thing....

 

[AussieU2fanman]

Firstly apathy has nothing to do with neutrality. Look them up.
If you ackowledge your sentiment lies within a gray area - you effectively are neurtral - there is no clear cut polar decision.

 

[Liesje]

Firstly apathy has nothing to do with neutrality. Look them up.
If you ackowledge your sentiment lies within a gray area - you effectively are neurtral - there is no clear cut polar decision.

What? Just because there's no clear right/wrong doesn't mean it paralyzes any attempt at progress. I acknowledge that there are gray areas involved with sorting out racism, however, my family has always taken a pro-active approach with this issue. I'm not sure how you're concluding that accepting gray = not doing ANYTHING about it. If anything, I think people use the gray areas as an excuse, a cop-out. Take the Nazi thing for example: my grandpa fought in WWII and liberated a concentration camp. The local people kept saying "gray" things like the "didn't know it was happening" or they "didn't like it but couldn't stop it". Too fucking bad. If you sit on your ass because you're scared of a gray area, you're not neutral, you're basically saying what's happening is OK. Since the villagers were such hypocrites, they had the fun job of giving 2000+ bodies a proper burrial.

There are rare issues where I sit neutral, but it's not because there's gray area on both sides, it's because I'll admit I'm apathetic and really don't care either way.

 

[martha]

How many times has remorse turned into cries of rape?

I don't know. Why don't you tell me?

 

[BVS]

I don't know. Why don't you tell me?

I don't know either, but that's my point. Trust me Martha I'm not trying to belittle the crime of rape by any means. I'm just trying to show that there never is an absolute. That's all.

Does that make sense?

 

[Irvine511]

i think it's a huge mistake to boil down geopolitics, loaded with the weight of history, into simple right vs. wrong categories.

the world won't fit into your box, no matter how sheltered from reality you try to keep yourself.

 

[AEON]

I'm just trying to show that there never is an absolute.

Are you absolutely sure about that? The word "never" certainly represents an absolute.

 

[AEON]

Rape is absolutely wrong - no matter how you cut it. There is no gray or middle ground on this subject.

Is there is any room for "relativism" if someone decided to bring six-month old babies onto a stage and slowly rip off their arms, legs, and heads? Of course not. Absolutes indeed exist. The reason many people don't want them to exist is so they can avoid their own conscience.

 

[BVS]

Are you absolutely sure about that? The word "never" certainly represents an absolute.

No Absolute: free from imperfection, complete, free from restriciton of limited, not comparative or relative, ultimate

I don't see how "never" represents an absolute.

 

[Irvine511]

Is there is any room for "relativism" if someone decided to bring six-month old babies onto a stage and slowly rip off their arms, legs, and heads? Of course not. Absolutes indeed exist. The reason many people don't want them to exist is so they can avoid their own conscience.

woah, there, tiger. do we really want to get into a late-term abortion discussion?

 

[BVS]

Rape is absolutely wrong - no matter how you cut it. There is no gray or middle ground on this subject.

Rape is absolutely wrong, but if it was rape isn't an absolute.

 

[BVS]

Is there is any room for "relativism" if someone decided to bring six-month old babies onto a stage and slowly rip off their arms, legs, and heads? Of course not. Absolutes indeed exist. The reason many people don't want them to exist is so they can avoid their own conscience.

Do we always have to use extremes to prove absolutes? That should tell you something.

But there are certain "grays" in your scenario. Why did the parents allow this person access to their babies? Why didn't the audience stop him?

So yes there is a wrong, but who gets how much blame isn't an absolute.

And I don't say this to avoid anything. So you may want to be careful about that absolute as well.

 

[AEON]

No Absolute: free from imperfection, complete, free from restriciton of limited, not comparative or relative, ultimate

I don't see how "never" represents an absolute.

American Heritage Dictionary:

NEVER = "Not ever; on no occasion; at no time; not at all; in no way; absolutely not"

 

[AEON]

I'm just trying to show that there never is an absolute

Rape is absolutely wrong-

Do you see why I sometimes get confused?

 

[martha]

I don't know either, but that's my point. Trust me Martha I'm not trying to belittle the crime of rape by any means. I'm just trying to show that there never is an absolute. That's all.

Does that make sense?

Yes and no, but I know what you weren 't trying to say. So I'm ok.

 

[BVS]

Do you see why I sometimes get confused?

Yes I'm actually guilty of overusing the word 'absolutely' quite a bit. That's my bad...

My point is the difference between concept or definition vs execution of.

Yes murder is bad, but will there ever be absolute truth about the murder?

So in theory yes there may be some absolutes, but not in reality.