Is it naive... - Page 4 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 09-16-2006, 02:52 PM   #46
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 12:58 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
No - because this is an absolute statement.
It's known as the paradox within postmodernism. However, most academics just chuckle and walk away.

In other words, this point is duly noted, but not seen as important or discrediting of the underlying philosophy.

Melon
__________________

__________________
melon is offline  
Old 09-16-2006, 04:35 PM   #47
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 10:58 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon


It's known as the paradox within postmodernism. However, most academics just chuckle and walk away.

Which is part of the problem with most academics - they thrive off contradiction,
__________________

__________________
AEON is offline  
Old 09-16-2006, 04:38 PM   #48
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,694
Local Time: 11:58 PM
Contradiction is balance...
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 09-16-2006, 05:17 PM   #49
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 12:58 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by AEON
Which is part of the problem with most academics - they thrive off contradiction.
Well, to be more specific, postmodernism thrives off of contradiction. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that postmodernism was embraced heavily by academics who also had embraced semiotics. As such, there's an awful lot of word play in this philosophy that can easily alienate the average person.

I think that's the main reason why so many people misunderstand postmodernism and its philosophy opposing "absolute truth." However, I do believe that, with an open mind and plenty of study, postmodernism has an awful lot of offer to public discourse. Once I began to understand all the paradoxes and wordplay, I really started to appreciate it.

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 09-16-2006, 10:24 PM   #50
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 06:58 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon
As such, there's an awful lot of word play in this philosophy that can easily alienate the average person.
Oh dear.
__________________
financeguy is offline  
Old 09-17-2006, 12:21 AM   #51
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 10:58 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon


However, I do believe that, with an open mind and plenty of study, postmodernism has an awful lot of offer to public discourse.
I think that history will look upon Post -Modernism and laugh. Just my opinion. Sort of how "Waiting for Goto" and "Theater of the Absurd" are already dated and laughable.
__________________
AEON is offline  
Old 09-17-2006, 12:24 AM   #52
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 10:58 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon

Once I began to understand all the paradoxes and wordplay, I really started to appreciate it.
There just seems something inherently wrong with this idea, in a universal sense.
__________________
AEON is offline  
Old 09-17-2006, 12:35 AM   #53
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 03:58 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Contradiction is balance...
No it isn't, contradiction means that one view best represents the facts and another does not.

Newtons ideas about gravity are contradicted by General Relativity, but they are not equally valid or balanced.

Objective truth does exist and there are times when people are simply wrong.

I maintain the internet is the pinnacle of the information age, ultimately a product of modernism.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 09-17-2006, 12:47 AM   #54
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
AEON's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: California
Posts: 4,052
Local Time: 10:58 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
No it isn't, contradiction means that one view best represents the facts and another does not.

Newtons ideas about gravity are contradicted by General Relativity, but they are not equally valid or balanced.

Objective truth does exist and there are times when people are simply wrong.

I maintain the internet is the pinnacle of the information age, ultimately a product of modernism.
The law of non-contradiction is one of the foundations of logic. If you throw it out, you might as well sew up your mouth and hack off your fingers because anything that came from them would be utterly meaningless.
__________________
AEON is offline  
Old 09-17-2006, 03:01 AM   #55
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 03:58 PM
Do you think that also applies to the idea of special creation? Which is more false than instantaneous gravitation.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 09-17-2006, 07:20 AM   #56
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Macfistowannabe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Ohio
Posts: 4,129
Local Time: 01:58 AM
Re: Re: Is it naive...

Quote:
Originally posted by melon


Well, you have to keep in mind that both of these quotes are knee-deep in the modernist era. Orson Welles also has an interesting quote around this mindset:

"I have a great love and respect for religion, great love and respect for atheism. What I hate is agnosticism, people who do not choose."-- Orson Welles

While postmodernism--and what you'd probably call "indecisiveness"--arrived around 1968, it has been my personal belief that it has been in decline since 9/11, with a return to modernism.

But here's the catch: with the return to modernism, expect a return to fanaticism and conflict. Modernism ushered in a whole bunch of rather wacky and generally incompatible belief systems, such as communism, fascism, eugenics, Ayn Rand, and Keynesian capitalism.

While decisiveness has its place, it also can quickly give in to a steadfast stubbornness and refusal to adapt and/or compromise. Much of the success of America has been centered around the ability to compromise, but with today's polarized world, "compromise" is a bad word. That tends to tell me that we're heading for a world of trouble in the coming decades, and we're about to repeat all the mistakes of the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

At the very least, "decisiveness," in itself, isn't a bad thing. However, I believe that it should always be tempered with a good dose of "inherent uncertainty." It has served the scientific community well for centuries, as it is one of the few institutions that is able to be decisive and quickly adapt to change when real-world evidence and research proves pre-existing theory wrong. The world could learn an awful lot from the scientific process.

Melon
So your quote defines modern liberalism. And yes, it has a lot to do with taking sides, so thank you for participating. But I'd be careful - some of us see moral relativism as an outlet to push moral confusion over moral clarity.
__________________
Macfistowannabe is offline  
Old 09-17-2006, 07:22 AM   #57
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Macfistowannabe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Ohio
Posts: 4,129
Local Time: 01:58 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon


Well, to be more specific, postmodernism thrives off of contradiction. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that postmodernism was embraced heavily by academics who also had embraced semiotics. As such, there's an awful lot of word play in this philosophy that can easily alienate the average person.

I think that's the main reason why so many people misunderstand postmodernism and its philosophy opposing "absolute truth." However, I do believe that, with an open mind and plenty of study, postmodernism has an awful lot of offer to public discourse. Once I began to understand all the paradoxes and wordplay, I really started to appreciate it.

Melon
If you really believed that there are no absolutes, your loyalty to your views would not be so unshakable.
__________________
Macfistowannabe is offline  
Old 09-17-2006, 07:55 AM   #58
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Macfistowannabe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Ohio
Posts: 4,129
Local Time: 01:58 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon


It's known as the paradox within postmodernism. However, most academics just chuckle and walk away.

In other words, this point is duly noted, but not seen as important or discrediting of the underlying philosophy.

Melon
They walk away because they cannot make sense out of their own unshakable beliefs.

And I was told that logic and reason is the basis for progressive thought?
__________________
Macfistowannabe is offline  
Old 09-17-2006, 09:01 AM   #59
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 12:58 AM
Re: Re: Re: Is it naive...

Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
So your quote defines modern liberalism. And yes, it has a lot to do with taking sides, so thank you for participating. But I'd be careful - some of us see moral relativism as an outlet to push moral confusion over moral clarity.
The term, "moral relativism," is utter nonsense. I think this term should be abolished, along with "reductio ad Hitlerum" arguments.

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 09-17-2006, 09:06 AM   #60
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 12:58 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
If you really believed that there are no absolutes, your loyalty to your views would not be so unshakable.
Frankly, I've argued this debate so many times that I'm at peace with my stance. I don't believe that "absolute truth" exists; what we have, instead, is "subjective consensus" that we masquerade as "absolute truth." However, as I've also stated, whether you want to call it "subjective consensus" or "absolute truth" tempered with inherent uncertainty is of absolutely no consequence to me. I don't care anymore, as I consider it a completely semantical distinction.

Since we have so many self-proclaimed "absolutists" in this world, I'm no longer willing to abdicate decisiveness to the far-right.

Melon
__________________

__________________
melon is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:58 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com