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Old 12-04-2002, 03:45 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by DrTeeth
That only means he's not the only moron around.


Quote:
Originally posted by Anthony
Interesting enough points. He's either as stupid or he looks or more sinister than he looks.

Great, this bodes well for the future.


Interesting article, Mrs. Edge. A linguist friend of mine had made similar observations awhile back. The statement He has an inordinate sense of his own entitlement, and he's a very skilled manipulator rings especially true to me. And I also definitely perceive him as an angry person. (But I could probably say the same about Clinton and a lot of politicians.)
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Old 12-04-2002, 05:39 PM   #47
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he is NOT angry
he's just a little flustered cuz u guys insist on pigeon-holeing him and calling him names

thank u all-
buttbrains.

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Old 12-04-2002, 06:22 PM   #48
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Sting do you think it is right to spend 396 billion on defense?

I dont. Canada spends 7.7 billion and Spain, with a population of 41 million(10 more then Canada) spends 6.9 billion. If we were to look at the rest of the world and their spending i would think canada would be in line with everyone else.

I do not understand your thirst for war. Do you really think that all wars are neccesary. Why doesnt the US finnish the war they are in now, terror, before they more onto Iraq.

I certainly agree with you about the US doing most of the spending in the world. But noone asks them too. They do it themsleves. Other countries, like China(POP 1 Billion) only spends 60 billion. It is your overspending that makes everyone else look bad. Just because we and many other countries think defense isnt our number 1 prioritie does not mean we are not as good as you's. Canada went to Afganistan, They lost men to you. Oh an accicendent. I as a Canadaian take offense to that. Go get the facts, these men who bombed us were told not once but twice not to bomb but still went on to bomb us. They are now being prosecuted for their crimes. Yes it wasnt like they knew they were canadians but they were told not to fire. And you are 100% false on your claim about it being televised for days. There was a program on here about a month after it happened and it was about how little reporting and discussion this got in the US and it was reported on all the national news, none of them started there program off with it. And only two followed up on it the next day.
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Old 12-04-2002, 07:33 PM   #49
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Sting,

WRT the balkans, Dubya and his father couldn't walk down the streets of Vukovar without somebody spitting in their face. The Europeans screwed up, but let's not elevate the US to some sort of sainthood here. They sent people like Eagelburger and Holbrooke to deal with the situation. I doubt you've ever walked the streets in Bosnia/Croatia/Kosovo, but if you had, you'd know that the word commonly used to describe these people is "lopov" which means something like thief/petty criminal. They are despised by every single ethnic group out there. And as for your heaven/hell comparison, well you know what, there is not anything worse than what happened 91-95, so when you compare the current situation to that, saying it's like heaven, it ain't exactly saying much. Life down there stinks. The unemployment rates are high, and all anybody's doing is lining up at embassies trying to get abroad. It just kills me when people who know nothing about the history of the Balkans APART from what they saw on CNN and read in the paper think things there are really improved. You have to walk a mile in those people's shoes, you have to have that famous Balkan mentality inbred, imprinted in your genes to have any idea of what it's all about.

Every time I see posts on this subject, I have a policy of responding. I sat in that dark, cold cellar while Serb bombs lit up the sky, and God knows learning about it first hand is not something I'm looking to repeat.

As for your military lovin' ways, here's a bit from Michael Moore's "Stupid White Men" (yes, I'm sure you all love him):

"The $250 billion the Pentagon plans to spend in 2001 to build 2800 new Joint Strike Fighter planes is more than enough to pay the tuition of every college student in America.

The proposed increase in monies for the Pentagon over the next 4 years is $1.6 trillion. The amount the General Accounting Office says is needed to renovate and upgrade every school in America is $112 billion."

Maybe the USA should redistribute some of that grandiose military spending instead of telling other countries to increase theirs.
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Old 12-04-2002, 08:09 PM   #50
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Bonoman,

In fact, I think more than 396 Billion should be spent on defense, of course if we had more help from our allies, that might not be necessary. Yes Canada is in line with many other allies who do not do enough when it comes to defense spending.

My thirst for war? What are talking about? Since when do I or anyone I know have a thirst for war? I'm for preventing war and loss of life. One of several ways of doing that is being able to defend your country and your countries and other countries interest overseas. We do not want to go back to the days before World War II or World War I where the USA waited until the first bomb crash to be ready for war. If the Europeans had a strong defense in regards to Germany and enforced the treaties that end World War I by removing Hitler when he started to violate the treaty, World War II at least in Europe would not of happened. In order to deter war from taking place, you have to have a strong military to convince those that seek to gain from military action, that military action with you or your allies is not worth the risk and should be avoided at all cost. It will be impossible to deter a potential enemy from making war if your militarly weak.

No war is necessary except in cases to defend oneself or others which the USA has done throughout its history.

The War on Terror and the situation in Iraq are both situations that require immediate attention. This is not like doing homework where you do one thing at a time. The threat from both is real and immediate just as a Doctor treating a patient must sometimes deal with multiple problems at the same time. The War on Terror involves intelligence agencies and Police forces and sometimes military forces while any war in Iraq would involve large conventional military forces that are not being used in the war on terror.

Well there are many countries that do ask the USA to provide many things but its true to a certain extent that we do it ourselves to the huge benefit of the Planet. Does the USA ever get thanked for this enormous service it provides to various regions of the world? Often it is simply taken for granted and few people grasp the reality of where much of their security has come from, both domestic and international.

By the way, estimates of China's military spending are unreliable because much of their military budget is hidden in area's of the budget meant for civilian area's.

The USA does not overspend and in fact has been underspending for nearly a decade until the past couple of years.

Yes Canada sent troops to Afghanistan, but it was a tiny fraction of what they should have sent.

I know the facts of what happened, its so easy for people to judge when their not in a combat zone with people shooting at them. Again it was a tragedy and an accident. This is not the first time that there has been an accident between countries of the NATO alliance involved in training. The USA has lost far more soldiers than Canada from training accidents involving the error of other countries.

Listen, I live in the USA and I watch multiple news programs, TV, Internet every night. It was reported over several days, I saw it! Perhaps you shouldn't believe everything your TV feeds you.

Could you technically explain why you think 396 Billion dollars is to much for the USA to spending on defense? What part of the USA defense budget is the USA overspending on? What weapon systems do you think should not be given to US soldiers? What training operations by US soldiers do you think need to be cut? How much do you think Soldiers salary's, that they use to take care of themselves and families, should be cut? How many soldiers do you think the USA needs to meet its security interest in different parts of the world?

If you think the USA is spending to much, you should be able to answer all those questions!
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Old 12-04-2002, 10:34 PM   #51
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If you think the USA is spending to much, you should be able to answer all those questions!
No i shouldnt. Remember i dont live in the USA. I really dont care about how much you's spend. It doesnt effect me. You could spend every penny, make bunkers and live in underground caves for all i care. But when you spend such a high amount of money when compared to the rest of the world that gives you no right to tell everyone else to pick up their slack. I will never tell another country to spend more here or less there because its none of my business, really. I might have used the 396 billion figure and said you spend to much but i really cant be bother as long as you dont go telling everyone else to spend more. You didnt like it when i critized your countries spending, now you know how we and most of the world feels.

Also, about the reporting of the Canadians killed by americans, you must have never been to Canada. We get every single channel you get. We get CBS, ABC, NBC, FOX, FOX NEWS, CNN, CNBC, MSNBC. I watch the same news every night as yourself. We watched the reporting. I watch Dan and Peter and Tom or Aaron. I know the reporting that was done the day after. I was watching for the simple fact to see if they reported on it and how they did and i must say it wasnt great. If Canada was to kill american soldiers it would be on TV for weeks. But i guess that what makes us Canadians and you americans.
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Old 12-05-2002, 12:16 AM   #52
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Anitrim,

I hope you would not prefer that the USA had not gotten involved at all and that it would be better to have another half million dead on top of the 250,000 that already died. Does that make sense to you, it does not to me. Even if you live there, I seriously doubt you can speak for every single Serb, Croat or Muslim in the region. I certainly don't claim to speak for all Americans. If you have scientific polling data to prove your claim on public opinion there lets see it. None of the US soldiers I have talked to talk about being hated and spit on in Bosnia or Kosovo. It would seem that your incredibly naive in assuming that I or others here at interference know nothing about the history of the Balkens and only have newspapers and CNN as sources.

I followed the military conflict from the very begining. In a speach class I had my first year in College, I did my second speach which was nearly half my grade on the conflict in Bosnia and that NATO needed to intervene. This is when many Americans including many in my class had a "who cares, let them kill each other" attitude.

American soldiers had never walked a mile in any of the shoes of those living in the region. Yet, they stopped a conflict that had killed 250,000 people. Thats something that the people of the Balkans and for that matter all of Europe, failed to do!

It would be possible to redistribute some US defense spending to other area's if our Allies would increase their spending and responsibilities as they should. But short of that, it would be foolish to compromise national and international security to fund another program that is already recieving funds.
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Old 12-05-2002, 12:53 AM   #53
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Bonoman,

You forgot that your country is apart of NATO and has responsibilities to meet. So yes it is my business and your business what other members of the Alliance are doing or are failing to do. I did not like it when you criticized US defense spending because you stated it was to much then failed to explain why you thought it was to much. Its fine to criticize, but if your going to do so, it would be helpful if you could explain your criticism and why you feel that why.

I have very legitimate reasons for criticizing are allies defense spending and can explain my reasons for doing so in detail. I obviously don't like it when people criticize and are not able to back their general statement with details.

Oh, and of course I must of not been watching when the event with the bombing of the Canadian soldiers happened. You can say and believe what you want, I know what I saw. I hope you know its not the first time that Canadian soldiers have died in a training accident involving US or other NATO soldiers. Dozens of US soldiers were killed in 1968 when an Israely jet mistakenly shot at a US frigate thinking it was Egyptian or Syrian. One out of every four US soldiers killed in the Gulf War were killed by US soldiers. There are training accidents in the USA every year as well as in other NATO countries. These are accidents and or friendly fire incidents and they do happen. Its a tragedy when these things happen, but they do, which is somthing you and other seem to fail to understand. There is no such thing as a 100% perfect condition or state. All you can do is try your best to reduce the probability of an accident happening. Humans are not perfect they make mistakes. When civilians make mistakes at their jobs, they or the company they work for lose money. In the Military when human error or mistakes happen, it can cost people their lives. Thats the reality. The best you can do is try and reduce the probablility of these accidents happening.

Canadian military has had many accidents in the past, yet most Canadians probably know nothing of them. Ohh, but if it involves those "evil" Americans to the south, everyone in Canada knows about it.
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Old 12-05-2002, 02:20 AM   #54
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Americans are certainly not evil. I enjoy americans. I have nothing againist you, or anyone one else for their nationality.

If Canada cant pull their weight in spending then they shouldnt be in NATO. I have no problem with that. We are however directly effected with whatever happens in your country thus should have a say in how the world is run. As i said in a previuos post Canada's spending is in line with alot of other nations. We dont spend huge amounts but we do what is neccesary and what our citizens want. I would rahter have money in health care and schooling then in defense. What you dont understand is that not every nation think defense is a number 1 priority. This is becasue not all nation are as hated as yours. america has participated in many wars and have done good to so many and are very underapriciated. But its the same thing that i say to my mom, my mom will go and decorate a room and then complain nobuddy is helping her. Same here you have done all these great things that does not mean that the rest of the world should do the same. We, and as we i mean the rest of the world, should relize that you's are the only superpower and that is a choice you have made yourselves. Being the only Superpower comes with the good and the bad. I just think you are focusing on the bad. Could your country be as rich without being a superpower?

In a poll around the world your country was said to be hands down the most hated. Do you not care about the rest of the worlds opinion? I really honestly think that america should back down and take it easy for a few years. During the Clinton admin. i would say that the world liked you much more. Well they also had someone to laugh at as well.

Also to part of NATO should the prerequsits be how much your country puts towards defense or maybe a balance of reasonability and defense would be a good idea. Many Canadians think this way: Why should we spend more money if anyone ever attacked us the US would bail us out. Well maybe they're right. I for one would rather money be spent on things that need adjusting NOW then defense. I would rather my child go to a school with books and good teachers or go to a hospital where i am never refused then see a few thousand more soilders. I (my country) comes first and the people come first.
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Old 12-05-2002, 11:45 AM   #55
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can you feel the love? america is just the little puppy of the whole world wich everyone loves and likes to pet.

bonoman, you have done a great job representing canadian views on the atrocious american system. thank you.

but like i said, america is vulnerable. its like the bully at school that constantly picks on smaller kids...soon hes picked on too many of them, and they gather together and beat the shit out of him.

lets hope a new administration with some interests other than oil, murder, and money will come into power in 2004.
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Old 12-05-2002, 12:11 PM   #56
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The problem here or the disagreement is the perception of what the threat is and what is required to be secure against that threat. Many people do not realize what the USA does and has done on a daily basis since World War II to insure another war on the scale of World War II does not happen again. Over 50 million people died in World War II. Most of them would probably laugh at the idea that security and defense is secondary priority to health care, books, and teachers. What good is health Care, books and teachers if you can't defend the country?

The USA has been providing the lion share of the security which has prevented another World War from happening over the past 60 years. So many people fail to realize this. I do not think its much to ask that other countries contribute more to ensure global security and prevent war. The first half of the 20th century, the USA was primarily and Isolationist power and only became involved in global war and problems long after they had blown into catastrophic problems. Several other countries refused to take preventive actions. The result was two World Wars that todays generation often fail to understand or appreciate the cost of.

Not only does the USA care about the rest of the World opinions we also care about the security of the rest of the world and peoples well being. If it was not for the USA, the United Nations and NATO would not exist only with many other international organizations. The USA may be a superpower but are resources to combat the problems of the world are not infinite, they are finite. It took collective action to win and end World War II, and the Cold War, and it will take collective action to build a secure and prosperous planet for everyone. Its time for the US allies to pick up their fair share and pay more for defense instead of living high of the hog while America strains to make up for the slack of its allies and provides them with the needed security they refuse to provide for themselves.

So the USA is hated. Well I beg to differ. Everyone continues to buy more than a Trillion dollars worth of US goods and Services around the world. Countries continue to beg the US government for aid. Most businesses in other countries have the USA as their most important market to sell goods to outside of their own country. People continue to risk everything to come to the USA. How about poll of the worlds people asking them if there was one other country where they would prefer to live rather than their own which country would it be? I can assure you it would be the USA. There is no other country on the planet that more people try to get into. The USA and Europe have similar birth rates but Europes population is steadily dropping while the USA will continue to rise over the next few decades. The main reason is immigration. It may be cool, popular, or fasionable to say you hate America, but peoples actions speak louder than opinion polls and words. Their actions do not demonstrate that they hate America.
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Old 12-05-2002, 12:17 PM   #57
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Lets hope the smaller kids learn to understand what a real bully is and what MURDER really is? Its amazing how some people always forget or fail to understand until its to late.
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Old 12-05-2002, 04:47 PM   #58
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Sting, people in countries that are prosperous and have good living conditon would rather stay where they are. Ya if you asked starving africans where they want to live they'd say the US but if you said Canada or Uk they would say yes. Go over to the thread with the poll. America is hated. Ya we love the msuic and movies but big deal. Just because a person from another country trades with you doesnt mean they like you. If i am selling shoes i could care less who buys them as long as they pay me.

Let me apoligize on behalf of myself and the rest of the world for seeing our children and our health as number 1 concerns. Why should my country bulk up on defense when we are not in immidiate danger while my citizens suffer.

You must stop and try to understnad something sting, the rest of the first world countries do not like your country. Accept it. Decide on whether you should change it or be above it. But you must accept the rest of first world countries generally are happy with there countries and would not move to yours. Maybe 100 years ago but not any longer. Oh and Canada has been rated 3 or 4 years #1 country to live in in the world. I wouldnt move to a place of street gangs and murder. I love my country because it has different ideals then yours.
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Old 12-05-2002, 05:22 PM   #59
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I love it. I see that the first post of this thread is that there is no want for debate, just a pole and then I see the 50+ people who are now debating/commenting/throwing there two cents in. Which also includes the person who first started this thread. Ahhh sweet irony.
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Old 12-05-2002, 05:24 PM   #60
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ya no doubt yeah.
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