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Old 11-14-2003, 07:41 AM   #16
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Originally posted by Danospano
I was in effect, encouraging nothing but "reasonable discussion".
In effect you insulted almost anyone who had an opposing view or who dared to present one.

"Republican zealots " is always a nice was of adressing members of the forum whose view may be different from yours or telling us right off the bat if we think Vidal is ignorant you"think too highly of yourself and need a kick in the nuts".

Honsestly I am not sure who you are talking to or about when you typed these comments. There are so few Republicans left in this forum. I agree with NB you left no room for reasonable debate.
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Old 11-14-2003, 08:00 AM   #17
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I've no doubt Vidal is extremely well read, though he seems to equate drawn conclusion with concrete fact. How long ago were Washington, Adams etc around? There's sometimes a very large difference between an esteemed opinion and the truth.

Funny you mention McVeigh db, there was a doco type show on the other night and he drew a comparison (morally speaking) between Iraq using children as shields and the child care centre on the second floor in the building he bombed. I'm not sure that is even worthy of serious thought though. Just interesting coincidence you mentioned him now.
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Old 11-14-2003, 08:02 AM   #18
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And yeah, Dano, got any proof to back all that up? We all love a good generalisation around here
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Old 11-14-2003, 12:25 PM   #19
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Old 11-14-2003, 09:59 PM   #20
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I don't think Bush is the worst president EVER, just a really bad one. I think Jackson was worse than Bush, trail of tears ignoring the supreme court and all that.
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Old 11-14-2003, 11:23 PM   #21
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Originally posted by ILuvLarryMullen
I don't think Bush is the worst president EVER, just a really bad one. I think Jackson was worse than Bush, trail of tears ignoring the supreme court and all that.
This is true. Jackson was definitely a jerk.

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Old 11-15-2003, 12:02 AM   #22
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Originally posted by ILuvLarryMullen
I don't think Bush is the worst president EVER, just a really bad one.
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Old 11-15-2003, 06:07 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


In effect you insulted almost anyone who had an opposing view or who dared to present one.

"Republican zealots " is always a nice was of adressing members of the forum whose view may be different from yours or telling us right off the bat if we think Vidal is ignorant you"think too highly of yourself and need a kick in the nuts".

Honsestly I am not sure who you are talking to or about when you typed these comments. There are so few Republicans left in this forum. I agree with NB you left no room for reasonable debate.


I'm a registered Republican, which surprises many people and I tend to keep to myself unless asked. Not necessarily this thread, but I usually keep my thoughts out of here the same reasons..
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Old 11-15-2003, 08:59 AM   #24
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i sorta like GW
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Old 11-15-2003, 03:08 PM   #25
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Well, I have not taken pain killers in over 48 hours and feel up to posting so here it goes. I enjoyed the Vidal article. I have done some research and encountered some of his writings about McVeigh which I will not touch upon here, since it would probably be construed as an attack on his character.

I will start with Mr. Franklin. Mr. Franklin, was my favorite of the founding fathers. I found a link to the speech he wrote about the Constitution that Mr. Vidal refers to in his writing. Mr. Franklin most definitely does refer to his reservations about the corrupt nature of man. He did indeed open his speech with reservations about the nature of this constituion an its ability to survive as others had failed so miserably in the past.

Mr. Vidal clings to Mr. Franklins opening remarks....and fails to see the pragmatist in Mr. Franklin's words. Mr. Franklin did not stop at the awful nature of man ending in despotism, but he spoke about the fact that he believed that the Convention had arrived at THE BEST opportunity for a governement that could succeed. Mr. Vidal is forgetting that there had already been a governement that had Failed and the states were on the verge of civil war. 13 states with 13 different monetary systems and no centralized federeal goverenment was not going to make them a success.

Mr. Franklin continued in that speech that it was every man's DUTY at that convention to go back to the states and NOT voice reservations about the constituion, but FOR THE GOOD of the COUNTRY, look beyond what faults there were in the document and push for ratification of it.

TO me this demonstates a major flaw in Mr. Vidal's assumtions about Mr. Franklin. Mr. Franklin may very well have supported the Patriot Act in its limited capacity, FOR THE GOOD OF THE COUNTRY despite its flaws. I am waiting to see some form of evidence that the Patriot Act has been abused. Mr. Vidal has not shown that it has, however, he makes an assumption that it has.

Franklin, was a noted spy if I am not mistaken, and got himself into a bit of trouble by reading someone elses mail at one point in time and revealing its contents back to friends here in the colonies. Further evidence that the Patriot Act, may not have been something he would have opposed. (I will check on that)


http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/wr...n_on_const.htm

I am not sure I agree that we are in an age of despotism in American governement, but I think that Franklin is probably correct about the nature of man and the influence of $$$$ unchecked on our politics.


As for his comment about Mr. Adams not standing for Mr. Bush because Mr. Adams was highly moral. Mr. Adams would not have condemned Mr. Bush because of guilt by association. There is not a shred of evidence anywhere that Mr. Bush has participated in any illegal activity with Mr. Lay. To make my case I would point to the fact that Mr. John Adams had a very famous cousin here in Boston named Samuel. He was known to hang out with a much rougher crowd around town, and his crowd was known for instigating a few tar and feathings of tax collectors, the Boston Massacre, and the Boston Tea Party to name a few. He did not get the beer named after him for being in the choir.

I find it laughable to make a historical statement that he would not support George Bush, when he defended the British soldiers in Boston who massacred the five protestors on March 5, 1770. A man who had chosen the law as his profession, and defended the British soldiers IN BOSTON, getiing an Aquittal for the Officer in charge would want Gorge Bush sent to another country? Can you immagine the courage that it took John Adams had to take the case in arguably the most hostile city in the colonies in 1770. George Bush is arguably one of the more devouty Christian Presidents I have seen in my lifetime. I would wager that his spiritual journy would be one that would be interesting to Adams.

Vidal is also wrong about how Adam's would view the current political state of the US. Adam's wrote papers called "Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States" and in them he acknoweldges while we do not have titles that give people an advantage towards achieving political power under our constitution there are already advatages

[Q]Let us enumerate some of them:--1. There is an inequality of wealth; some individuals, whether by descent from their ancestors, or from greater skill, industry, and success in business, have estates both in lands and goods of great value; others have no property at all; and of all the rest of society, much the greater number are possessed of wealth, in all the variety of degrees between these extremes; it will easily be conceived that all the rich men will have many of the poor, in the various trades, manufactures, and other occupations in life, dependent upon them for their daily bread; many of smaller fortunes will be in their debt, and in many ways under obligations to them; others, in better circumstances, neither dependent nor in debt, men of letters, men of the learned professions, and others, from acquaintance, conversation, and civilities, will be connected with them and attached to them. Nay, farther, it will not be denied, that among the wisest people that live, there is a degree of admiration, abstracted from all dependence, obligation, expectation, or even acquaintance, which accompanies splendid wealth, insures some respect, and bestows some influence. 2. Birth. Let no man be surprised that this species of inequality is introduced here. Let the page in history be quoted, where any nation, ancient or modern, civilized or savage, is mentioned, among whom no difference was made between the citizens, on account of their extraction. The truth is, that more influence is allowed to this advantage in free republics than in despotic governments, or than would be allowed to it in simple monarchies, if severe laws had not been made from age to age to secure it. The children of illustrious families have generally greater advantages of education, and earlier opportunities to be acquainted with public characters, and informed of public affairs, than those of meaner ones, or even than those in middle life; and what is more than all, an habitual national veneration for their names, and the characters of their ancestors described in history, or coming down by tradition, removes them farther from vulgar jealousy and popular envy, and secures them in some degree the favor, the affection, and respect of the public. Will any man pretend that the name of Andros, and that of Winthrop, are heard with the same sensations in any village of New England? Is not gratitude the sentiment that attends the latter, and disgust the feeling excited by the former? In the Massachusetts, then, there are persons descended from some of their ancient governors, counsellors, judges, whose fathers, grandfathers, and great-grandfathers, are remembered with esteem by many living, and who are mentioned in history with applause, as benefactors to the country, while there are others who have no such advantage. May we go a step farther,--Know thyself, is as useful a precept to nations as to men. Go into every village in New England, and you will find that the office of justice of the peace, and even the place of representative, which has ever depended only on the freest election of the people, have generally descended from generation to generation, in three or four families at most. The present subject is one of those which all men respect, and all men deride. It may be said of this part of our nature, as Pope said of the whole:--[/Q]

I think by these statements here it is clear, that John Adams would not be surprised to be transported into the future to find George Bush, the son of a President, with a famous name in politics, with ties to money. I am sorry Mr. Vidal, our founding fathers were realists too, and they understood the form of governement they were creating.

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/found...v1ch15s34.html

I would argue with Mr. Vidal that there are restrictions on the Patriot Act I. Patriot Act II is NOT necessary in my mind. I am not supportive of it. I do not claim to know a lot about it. Patriot Act I runs out next year I believe, or it can be renewed. I am waiting for someone to show some documentation of abuses that have occured under the patriot act.

Again, I am not posting in here much, I miss it, but when I am taking the medicine I am finding it very difficult to make anything worth typing come out. Thanks for your well wishes and PMs.

Matt
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Old 11-15-2003, 08:09 PM   #26
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Old 11-15-2003, 09:20 PM   #27
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Originally posted by She ls Raging




I'm a registered Republican, which surprises many people and I tend to keep to myself unless asked. Not necessarily this thread, but I usually keep my thoughts out of here the same reasons..
It's unfortunate that anyone should have to feel that way about posting here. I'm an independent who usually votes Democratic, but the most important political belief I have is for democracy and human rights. That means the right for people to believe what they see fit, be it Republican, Democratic, liberal, conservative or centrist politics. If this forum is to live up to its name, we'll have to keep from jumping to conclusions about people with Political Creed X, and let everyone have the freedom to express their opinion. Otherwise this will turn into a boring "preaching to the choir" forum. Horrors. I don't want that. I want opinions, I want diversity, I want to read all points of view so I'll keep on thinking and not get locked into some numbing political orthodoxy.
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Old 11-15-2003, 09:41 PM   #28
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Dread,
my loving heartfelt positive vibes your way.

(yes that means prayers but I'd rather paint quietly.
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Old 11-15-2003, 11:19 PM   #29
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Dreadsox=brilliant
Get well Matt.

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Old 11-16-2003, 04:27 PM   #30
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Get well Matt.

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and what Scarletwine said...
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