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Old 11-06-2003, 08:13 AM   #46
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I don't know, I never heard that. The people who complained were in Spain.
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Old 11-06-2003, 10:25 AM   #47
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Originally posted by bonoman


Right there is reason i dont like to tip. EXPECT. Dont expect anything when its not a guarentee.
It's built into the system that way. Waiting staff in most areas of the U.S. don't make minimum wage because tipping is to make up for that. If you don't like it then rally for higher wages, but don't skip them out of a tip.
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Old 11-06-2003, 10:49 AM   #48
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But lets be honest here. Things have moved from a wage based system to a perfromance almostcomission system with the customer having to foot the comission. I think waiters need to be paid more and that restaurants need to stop being so damn greedy. I tip, cause I know they need it, but I don't just blindly pay. I get baseline adequate service don't expect more than 10% unless you're working too many tables or its just insanely busy. I can tell when waiters are working hard. If you're not and I don't get anythin more than a well trained chimp could give me don't expect more than the bare minimum from me. Good service merits15-20% depending on what it is. On a five dollar (rounded up of course) fancy coffee place (I hate the price so I don't go much but the atmosphere's nice, and me and my friends know one of teh long time staff), I'll drop a dollar cause on small bills 15% doesn't mean a lot. Big bills are a different story. IF I have a $60 restaurant bill or to make it really fancy say a $100 restaurant bill (haven't been to one of those palces in over ten years) no way you'll se me drop 12 bucks for the first or 20 buck on the second for good service (great service yes), that's damn good money on top of any wage for that time period, say an hour, and that's just for one table. I do attach a dollar value to good service but it's not a fixed percentage, I look at how much effort and work was done and evaluate myself. Custom be damned I pay what I think the service is worth. It's called a tip and therefore it is my evealuation of my serever's merit. I value good service, great service can make my day and I pay accordinly but I do so by my own evaluation and I don't take kindly to people telling what to do on this matter. I don't shaft people. There are plenty of people who work very hard and alos take a lot of crap at their job (I Umpire amature baseball so trust me I know more about taking crap for my work more than most) but a lot of them don't have the option of tips. Service industries are undervalued but so are a lot of other jobs, jobs that are even more important, like teachers who are just as undervalued (at least around where I am) and underpaid (and don't bitch me out on this reighties, senior teachers do make good money, but only after years of work, a teacher's starting salary is shite).
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Old 11-06-2003, 12:04 PM   #49
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


It's built into the system that way. Waiting staff in most areas of the U.S. don't make minimum wage because tipping is to make up for that. If you don't like it then rally for higher wages, but don't skip them out of a tip.
This right here is exacty the root of the problem some of us have been trying in vain to point out. We have moved from the wage society to the lower wage, consumer (who's already paying!) make up the difference in the low paid person's wage so businesses can keep more profits society. As long as this is allowed to continue, and people, both workers and customers put up with it, it will only get worse. The day may come when everyone works only for tips! Don't think that's outrageous. It could happen. There are consultants and business people everywhere having meetings discussing how to increase profits, and at some time, someone must have had that idea.

You see, it wasn't always 'built into the system', it has become that way over the last 20 years. I have seen things change just in my lifetime. I'm older than many of you (34 next month) and until at some point in the 1990's, really no one was tipped except waiters and waitresses, who always have been. Oh, and doormen and bellboys, I've seen that on TV, never been to a snooty enough hotel myself to know

One by one it came- everyone started expecting a tip- hairstylists, pizza delivery boys, hotel maids leaving little envelopes, and now the dreaded tip jars on almost every counter. All this coincided with, or at least followed, the decline in wages in the US sometime in the 80's, and the move from a society where good paying manufacturing jobs were going overseas (thanks free trade people!) and families were forced to make up the difference with 2 or 3 service jobs where one good manufacturing job used to support everyone. Don't make fun of this, I personally saw this and know people affected in a negative way. So now, as my eccentric aunt predicted years ago, all we have are high end high tech or professional jobs and low end service jobs. The middle class is dying. The service jobs are the hardest work, but get the least money. Rather than pay these people a fraction of what they are worth, business owners feel they can rely on the 'tip' to make up the difference. He gets richer, the help stays poor, and the customers are poorer having to pay both for the item or service plus helping pay the workers! I see this as twisted and wrong and a product of greed which has been a terrible thing for all but the very rich. Rant over. Revolution, anyone?
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Old 11-06-2003, 12:24 PM   #50
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Originally posted by U2Kitten

This right here is exacty the root of the problem some of us have been trying in vain to point out. We have moved from the wage society to the lower wage, consumer (who's already paying for something!) make up the difference in the low paid person's wage so they can keep more profits. As long as this is allowed to continue, and people, both workers and customers put up with it, it will only get worse. The day may come when everyone works only for tips! Don't think that's outrageous. It could happen.

I have seen things change just in my lifetime. I'm older than many of you (34 next month) and until at some point in the 1990's, really no one was tipped except waiters and waitresses, who always have been. Oh, and doormen and bellboys, I've seen that on TV, never been to a snooty enough hotel myself to know

Suddenly, everyone wanted a tip- hairstylists, pizza delivery boys, hotel maids leaving little envelopes, and now the dreaded tip jars on almost every counter. All this coincided with, or at least followed, the decline in wages in the US sometime in the 80's, and the move from a society where good paying manufacturing jobs were going overseas (thanks free trade people!) and families were forced to make up the difference with 2 or 3 service jobs where one good manufacturing job used to support everyone. Don't make fun of this, I personally saw this and know people affected in a negative way. So now, as my eccentric aunt predicted years ago, all we have are high end high tech or professional jobs and low end service jobs. The middle class is dying. The service jobs are the hardest work, but get the least money. Rather than pay these people a fraction of what they are worth, business owners feel they can rely on the 'tip' to make up the difference. He gets richer, the help stays poor, and the customers are poorer having to pay both for the item or service plus helping pay the workers! I see this as twisted and wrong and a product of greed which has been a terrible thing for all but the very rich. Rant over. Revolution, anyone?
Ok but what about the other side of the coin. Often salespeople work for commision. This requires a certain type of person, but if you're good, you can make good money. A lot of these company's offer commisions, bonuses, etc. to encourage or entice achievement. Otherwise their product just might sit there. It's the same with the service industry. It's just like a commision job, but the commision comes from another source. If wages were raised and tipping gone, you'd see a higher price for food and lower quality of service. So you'd be spending the same but for slow service and cold food. Good waitstaff work hard for their tips. Now I do know there are those that don't and still expect 15-20% but those are few and usually don't last very long in this field. Now I agree the overabundance of tip jars is ridiculous, but eliminating tipping will not help anyone out. It's essential to this business. And those that complain well...
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Old 11-06-2003, 12:33 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by pub crawler
Laws of nature :

When you eat at a restaurant in the U.S., you tip between 15%-20%. No less than 15% unless your server has been blatantly rude or incompetent to the extent that it ruined your dining experience. Even after having subpar food and/or service I still usually tip 15%.

If you are the one person in the party of friends dining together who thinks it's okay to tip 10%, or you think everyone else's tips will make up for your meager tip, or you have a rule that you never tip more than $2.00 (U.S.) even if you spent $25.00 on dinner, the fact is you're a cheapskate and you suck.

Every hair stylist that I've known expects a tip. When you get your haircut, you tip. At least $5.00.
You got it all down. My hair stylist is also the owner of her business and she prefers that her clients do not tip her but tip her assistant. She also charges an obscene price for her services so I never tip her but always give her assistant $10 (it's a classy joint).
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Old 11-06-2003, 12:57 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
If wages were raised and tipping gone, you'd see a higher price for food and lower quality of service. So you'd be spending the same but for slow service and cold food.
if that was true I'd never be able to get a decent meal
because leaving a tip isn't really costum practise over here

it is probably true that prices in general would be higher if tipping disappeared
it's also (more than) probably true that right now the people paying the salaries are taking advantage of their employees getting tips by offering them lower standard salaries than they should

if people really would do not as good a job because they're not working for tips but on a steady salary than there's something so existentially wrong with their work ethics that I doubts even tips could help
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Old 11-06-2003, 01:52 PM   #53
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Originally posted by Salome
if that was true I'd never be able to get a decent meal
because leaving a tip isn't really costum practise over here

it is probably true that prices in general would be higher if tipping disappeared
it's also (more than) probably true that right now the people paying the salaries are taking advantage of their employees getting tips by offering them lower standard salaries than they should

if people really would do not as good a job because they're not working for tips but on a steady salary than there's something so existentially wrong with their work ethics that I doubts even tips could help
Are there bonus incentives in the service industry over there?

Here you would have to pay a good waiter/ waitress at a decent restaurant quite a bit over minimum wage, at many restaurants you have to pay well over minimum wage to get people to work as a waiter. Prices would go up quite a bit. I understand what you are saying about work ethic, but the industry is not an easy one. I can see both sides, I just don't ever see it changing here in the U.S.
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Old 11-06-2003, 03:12 PM   #54
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I wouldn't mind paying slightly higher prices for things if it all added up to us not having to tip, worry about how much, judge someone's worth by their service, or feel uncomfortable about it. But again the money would be coming from the customer, and unless it's a small, private owned business I think the owners should cough up more of their profits for the help. But that is never going to happen in America. Anyway, it's not the waitress tipping I have a problem with. It's always been that way and always will. It's the way it has spread to other jobs, like the hotel maids and counter jars and convenience stores, that looks like a disturbing trend to me. I see it spreading to nearly all fields as a way for greedy owners (not small struggling private ones okay?) to supplement their workers' pay at the consumer's expense even though they have likely already paid too high a price for the service or product to begin with.

One more thing I forgot to mention- are you all aware there are many places that will not let a person keep his/her individual tips? They make them throw them all in a jar in the back and they are divided evenly at the end of the shift. I think that sucks, because some have been given higher tips because they deserved them and worked hard for them, and some were given little or no tip because they didn't. So everyone tipping based on quality of service should be angry their money is being done that way. It's not fair and defeats the purpose.
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Old 11-06-2003, 03:29 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Kitten
I wouldn't mind paying slightly higher prices for things if it all added up to us not having to tip, worry about how much, judge someone's worth by their service, or feel uncomfortable about it. But again the money would be coming from the customer, and unless it's a small, private owned business I think the owners should cough up more of their profits for the help. But that is never going to happen in America. Anyway, it's not the waitress tipping I have a problem with. It's always been that way and always will. It's the way it has spread to other jobs, like the hotel maids and counter jars and convenience stores, that looks like a disturbing trend to me. I see it spreading to nearly all fields as a way for greedy owners (not small struggling private ones okay?) to supplement their workers' pay at the consumer's expense even though they have likely already paid too high a price for the service or product to begin with.

One more thing I forgot to mention- are you all aware there are many places that will not let a person keep his/her individual tips? They make them throw them all in a jar in the back and they are divided evenly at the end of the shift. I think that sucks, because some have been given higher tips because they deserved them and worked hard for them, and some were given little or no tip because they didn't. So everyone tipping based on quality of service should be angry their money is being done that way. It's not fair and defeats the purpose.
I agree with you about non-service jobs wanting tips. It's crap

I know of certain restaurants having waiters give a certain percentage to the busboy who cleaned their tables and hostess, but I've never heard of them completely dividing it up. That sucks and totally defeats the purpose.
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Old 11-06-2003, 03:44 PM   #56
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Yes it does. I know a guy who got a tip of $20 from his mother's friends, and he pocketed it and didn't put it in the jar. He got in trouble and got fired. That sucks. I agree with him. It was a special treat for him. I'd have done the same thing. More resturants do that than you think from what I hear. I hate it and it's not fair. Another thing that bugs me is the 'socialism' waitressing I see some places, especially all you can eat bars. You will get plates and refilled drinks and your table cleared by 4 or 5 girls, some nice, some snotty. You don't know who's getting the money. They probably have a damn community tip thing too

Again speaking of how far things have come, my first job at 16 was in a Ponderosa steak house back in 1986. We had to bring out the cooked meals that were ordered in the line, refill drinks, and clear tables. There was a sign up on the wall that read NO TIPS PLEASE! At that time, the minimum wage was $3.35 but if you were under 18 they got away with $2.85. I only got snuck a tip once, a whole dollar bill from 4 workmen who were kind of flirty. Then I found some small change under a dish where some old ladies had been eating. In those days, tipping was for take your order type waitresses only, not just table helpers, or any other job. Things have completely turned around.
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Old 11-06-2003, 04:18 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by Blacksword
. Big bills are a different story. IF I have a $60 restaurant bill or to make it really fancy say a $100 restaurant bill (haven't been to one of those palces in over ten years) no way you'll se me drop 12 bucks for the first or 20 buck on the second for good service (great service yes), that's damn good money on top of any wage for that time period, say an hour, and that's just for one table. I do attach a dollar value to good service but it's not a fixed percentage, I look at how much effort and work was done and evaluate myself. Custom be damned I pay what I think the service is worth. It's called a tip and therefore it is my evealuation of my serever's merit.

Speaking as a teacher and as a former waitress I have to disagree about tipping on larger bills. Regardless how much I was tipped I had to pay out 2% on my total sales and 20% of my credit card tips. If I was stiffed It caused me money to wait on that table.

Why should it be a server's fault if someone runs up a big tab that they don't feel like tipping on? They still have to pay kitty on that table's bill. I don't know. I'm so confused as to where the tip limit comes from. There are times when a server is taxed on money they technically did not make. I know I could have found another job in college but the place I worked was great and so were my coworkers. Unfortunatly all it took was one bad tip to ruin my entire night.

Anyway, if you don't like tipping, don't go out to eat.
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Old 11-06-2003, 04:50 PM   #58
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Originally posted by WildHoneyAlways


Anyway, if you don't like tipping, don't go out to eat.
Amen
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Old 11-06-2003, 05:28 PM   #59
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Anyway, if you don't like tipping, don't go out to eat.
that's a bit of strange way to reason though

if I wouldn't do any of the things that somehow involved something I don't like then I probably wouldn't get out of bed anymore
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Old 11-06-2003, 05:34 PM   #60
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that's a bit of strange way to reason though

if I wouldn't do any of the things that somehow involved something I don't like then I probably wouldn't get out of bed anymore
I think she's coming from an American point of view. If you don't tip here at dinner, you're screwing some poor person out of their wages.

If you don't like tipping then lobby for better wages, but until that happens you don't screw over the little guy.
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