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Old 08-24-2004, 08:02 PM   #16
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Originally posted by ThatGuy
How many US troops are still in Iraq? How were the current leaders of Iraq chosen? How much is the US still involved?

I know it's frustrating, but is it really surprising that some Iraqis feel that they're living under occupation? As much as the administration would like to say, "It's all in the Iraqis' hands now," that's clearly not the case.
Iraq will be having its first free election in January. Something that would not be happening if the Anti-War Crowd had their way.
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Old 08-24-2004, 08:42 PM   #17
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Iraq will be having its first free election in January. Something that would not be happening if the Anti-War Crowd had their way.
And I know people who'd still be alive if they had. This comment is getting old and really has nothing to do with the issue. The means are what were in question.
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Old 08-24-2004, 08:55 PM   #18
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Are the means really in question? Even Kerry agrees the war was appropriate (even though he would have conducted it more "effectively").
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Old 08-24-2004, 08:57 PM   #19
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And I know people who'd still be alive if they had. This comment is getting old and really has nothing to do with the issue. The means are what were in question.
And based on Saddam's reign the past 25 years, there would be far more people dead as well.

The only way to have free and democratic elections in Iraq was through the removal of Saddam's regime. The only way to remove Saddam's regime (which included 12 extensive security services, and a 400,000 man military led by an elite 100,000 man Republican Guard) was through military force.

If you know another way based on the history and capabilities of Saddam's regime, please explain in detail.
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Old 08-24-2004, 09:24 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2


And based on Saddam's reign the past 25 years, there would be far more people dead as well.

The only way to have free and democratic elections in Iraq was through the removal of Saddam's regime. The only way to remove Saddam's regime (which included 12 extensive security services, and a 400,000 man military led by an elite 100,000 man Republican Guard) was through military force.

If you know another way based on the history and capabilities of Saddam's regime, please explain in detail.
The question of was war the only means is not the point, actually it's mute. How the war was handled may be even more appropriate, but it still doesn't answer the original point of this thread stating that some Iraqis don't like Bush or how their country is being handled. So really the bashing of the "anti-war" crowd is just pointless.
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Old 08-25-2004, 01:19 AM   #21
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I think that some 50,000 people would be alive if the war had not taken place, this includes civilian and millitary casualties on both sides. Having said that the cost of inaction would been around 100,000 civilian casualties and the persistent risk of a large scale terrorist attack with WMD. The anti-war crowd has to accept that there are concequinces for both action and inaction, believing that nonviolence at massive cost of life is more virtuous than war is a fundamentally flawed and dangerous concept.

Now with that out of the way, I think that many Iraqis hate the United States being in their country, they hate the way the US has treated the Arabs, they hate the sanctions imposed on their country for a decade and they loath loosing the power and position they enjoyed under Saddam. The majority of Iraqis however understand that having the coalition maintaining peace until the Iraqi government can do it with a security force is a neccisary evil, this is reflected in polls (oddly enough only the polls that show some fluke swing against the US are ever reported). I have no doubt that these Iraqis genuinely dont like the US, many of them may like having Saddam being removed but dont like living under an occupation - the important thing is however to reciognize that these players do not represent the opinions of every Iraqi.

Freedom Can Be Fought For, Peace Can Be Won and Iraq Will Be Free!
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Old 08-25-2004, 01:47 AM   #22
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I think that trotting out Iraq as some sort of achievement at this point is incredibly premature when we still have soldiers fighting and dying over there. True, Iraq is supposed to have elections this January, but that weren't they originally supposed to be held this year? Yes, the US has deposed Saddam, but there's still such a long way to go. Hopefully it works out okay.

If the Iraq war (and the way it was managed) turns out to be a good idea then ten years from now when we pull out the last of our troops you can come back to this thread and say, "I told you so."
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Old 08-25-2004, 06:02 PM   #23
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On topic:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...eax/index.html

Quote:
Setting the record straight
There was no misinterpreting Iraqi players' anger at Bush's campaign
Posted: Tuesday August 24, 2004 4:24PM; Updated: Tuesday August 24, 2004 4:24PM

ATHENS, Greece -- I had a feeling SI.com might ruffle some feathers in Washington with my story last week about Iraqi soccer players' displeasure with President Bush after he used the Iraqi Olympic team in his latest re-election campaign ad.

(To see the ad, click here.)

But I can't say I expected former Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) officials to publicly question the accuracy of the story, so let's set the record straight.

When asked about the SI.com piece on Monday's ESPN2 broadcast of Cold Pizza, former senior CPA official Don Eberly reiterated a quote from a Reuters interview of Mark Clark, a British consultant for the Iraqi Olympic Committee and himself a former CPA official.

Clark's statement, which was passed along by Eberly, was this: "It seems the story was engineered."

I don't know about you, but I take "engineered" to mean anything from "not on the level" (at best) to "fabricated" (at worst). Curious about Mark Clark's definition of the word, I called him on Monday.

Clark told me two interesting things: 1) When he commented on the SI.com story to Reuters he hadn't yet read it, and 2) he "didn't recall" using the word "engineered" in the Reuters interview. When I asked Reuters reporter Alastair Himmer, who quoted Clark, Himmer said, "He [Clark] told me straight up, mate. I'm not in the business of making up quotes."

If Clark did use the term engineered, then he's simply wrong. The two Iraqi players I interviewed, Salih Sadir and Ahmed Manajid, were asked simple questions. (The interview is on audio tape.) One of them was: "President Bush has included the Iraqi Olympic team in his latest campaign advertisements. How do you feel about that?"

The players answered the question -- no more, no less.

Clark also told Reuters, "it is possible something was lost in translation" in the SI.com story.

Well, no it isn't. On Tuesday, I played the tape of my original interviews (and the accompanying translations) for Chawki Rayess, an Arabic/English interpreter working for Olympic organizers in Athens. Rayess, a member of the respected International Association of Conference Interpreters, confirmed as accurate the following:

From Sadir: "Iraq as a team does not want Mr. Bush to use us for the presidential campaign. He can find another way to advertise himself."

And from Manajid: "How will [Bush] meet his god having slaughtered so many men and women? He has committed so many crimes."

Then again, I already knew that the original translations were made in precise language, hardly a sign of confusion. If Clark and Eberly wish, I would be happy to provide them a copy of the tape. Until then, let's keep following the Iraqi soccer team's march to a possible bronze medal -- in my mind the best story of these Olympics.
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Old 08-25-2004, 07:53 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by ThatGuy
I think that trotting out Iraq as some sort of achievement at this point is incredibly premature when we still have soldiers fighting and dying over there. True, Iraq is supposed to have elections this January, but that weren't they originally supposed to be held this year? Yes, the US has deposed Saddam, but there's still such a long way to go. Hopefully it works out okay.

If the Iraq war (and the way it was managed) turns out to be a good idea then ten years from now when we pull out the last of our troops you can come back to this thread and say, "I told you so."
The soldiers will be the first people to tell you that they have achieved a lot and it does not get mentioned in the mainstream press. The benefits from the removal of Saddam's regime and large military structure as well has insuring he was disarmed of all WMD have enormous benefits for the entire Persian Gulf Region and the safety and security of the planets energy supply.
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Old 08-25-2004, 08:02 PM   #25
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I thought Saddam shipped all of his WMD to Syria.

And STING there's a lot on both sides that doesn't get coverage in the mainstream press. Neither you nor I are going to give a truly balanced picture of Iraq.
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Old 08-25-2004, 08:31 PM   #26
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I thought Saddam shipped all of his WMD to Syria.

And STING there's a lot on both sides that doesn't get coverage in the mainstream press. Neither you nor I are going to give a truly balanced picture of Iraq.
No one knows what Saddam has done with his WMD that he was required to verifiably disarm of, which is why military action in Iraq became a necessity.

#1 You have the exstensive poll results that show Iraqi's feel that life now is better than it was under Saddam.

#2 The vast majority of reports from Soldiers and Marines often talk about the positive achievments they are making but complain about the fact that it is often never covered.

#3 The Media typically only reports bad news.

#4 Large area's of Iraq have seen little or no violence. The vast Majority of attacks against coalition forces only occur in the Sunni Triangle, even with the addition of Sadr and the Madi Army attacks which are more in the south.

#5 The soldiers and Marines collective statements do form a balanced picture of what is going on in Iraq and more people should take note.
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Old 08-25-2004, 08:58 PM   #27
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#5 The soldiers and Marines collective statements do form a balanced picture of what is going on in Iraq and more people should take note.
WTF? So we should only listen to the soldiers? I have the upmost respect for the majority of the soldiers, but come on, they're the ones with the balanced view? That's like saying the employee always has the balanced view of a it's corporation or that a parent always has the balanced view of their own child. Sorry, I don't think so.
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Old 08-25-2004, 10:02 PM   #28
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No, STING's right. Let's listen to the soldiers.

Here's a few.

http://cbftw.blogspot.com/
http://daggerjag.blogspot.com/
http://www.missick.com/warblog.htm
http://livefromiraq.blogspot.com/
http://www.thequestingcat.com/blog/index.shtml

Why doesn't the military want us to listen to the soldiers?

Admitting bias isn't a bad thing. I don't think I have all the answers and neither should anyone else. Just because you think your side is right doesn't mean that you have a complete view of the situation in Iraq.
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Old 08-25-2004, 11:30 PM   #29
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From one of the blogs above about one of the liberals Gods Michael Moore:

Moore Mistakes
By now, most internet users who peruse blogs have seen the “58 Lies of Michael Moore.” I know I browsed it a while back, but with his new book being compiled and edited, it seems he is about to enter the spotlight again. One of the stories I hadn’t yet read until yesterday, appeard in the Army Times this week. According to the Gannett News Service and journalist Gina Cavallaro, Sgt. Peter Damon has a cameo in Moore’s film Fahrenheit 9/11 and is extremely angry about it.

According to the article:

"What really makes me mad is that people get the impression that I agree with it,'' said Damon, 31, a helicopter mechanic who lost both arms in an accident in Iraq last year. "People started coming up to me and telling me they had seen me in the movie. At first I thought it was a mistake. Some even said congratulations for taking a stand against the war,'' Damon said. "I volunteered to go, I wanted to go. I believe we should be in Iraq,'' he said. "I was really embarrassed and ashamed to be in a theater where people were laughing and clapping about Moore making fun of President Bush.''
The article continues to explain the story of Sgt. Damon, why he enlisted, what caused his accident, his upbrining and his attitude about Moore and the film. On this he Ms. Cavallaro notes:

Still, Damon is angry. "Just the whole thought of being in this piece of propaganda. It's like a documentary Hitler would have made." "You know when you join the military that there's an inherent risk,'' Damon said."
And yet Moore pushes forward and plans to release his book in October. One can't help but wonder in what context the letters written to him will appear. To have used Sgt. Damon in the way he did, there is not a question of political ideology at stake, but an issue of integrity, honesty and chracter. What you see with Moore, may not exactly be what you get.
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Old 08-25-2004, 11:38 PM   #30
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


WTF? So we should only listen to the soldiers? I have the upmost respect for the majority of the soldiers, but come on, they're the ones with the balanced view? That's like saying the employee always has the balanced view of a it's corporation or that a parent always has the balanced view of their own child. Sorry, I don't think so.
No one said that we should only listen to the soldiers. My point is that their positive views on the work they are doing in Iraq are being ignored by most media organizations especially liberal ones. There are 160,000 coalitions troops in Iraq and in addition to that, thousands of civilians and civil affairs personal, Diplomatic Corp personal, doing a wide range of jobs in securing and rebuilding Iraq. Their views are certainly not the only views, but I dare you to find a more professional and experienced group of people currently on the ground in Iraq then this group which has people from over 50 different countries around the world.
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