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Old 06-22-2005, 04:23 PM   #1
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Iraqi Civil War

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U.S. marines watching the skyline from their second-story perch in an abandoned house here saw a curious thing: In the distance, mortar rounds and gunfire popped, but the volleys did not seem to be aimed at them.

In the dark, one marine spoke in hushed code words on a radio, and after a minute found the answer. “Red on red,” he said late Sunday night, using a military term for enemy-on-enemy fire.

Marines patrolling this desert region near the Syrian border have for months been seeing a strange trend in the complex Iraqi insurgency. Insurgents, they say, have been fighting one another in this constellation of towns along the Euphrates, from Husayba to Qaim. The observations offer a new clue in the hidden world of the insurgency and suggest that there may have been, as American commanders suggest, a split between Islamic militants and local rebels.
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Old 06-22-2005, 09:05 PM   #2
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Thanks for your honesty, A_Wanderer.

Don't get fooled again.
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Old 06-23-2005, 10:53 AM   #3
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If true, this trend would not be surprising. The same kinds of splits have been reported in Kashmir, between the Moslem Kashmiris, who want a political solution (i.e. their own statehood) and separation from India, and the Jihadists (mostly Arabs) who have come there to "support" the locals in their fights against the "infidel Hindus." More and more the Arabs/non-Kashmiris are seen as outsiders with a narrow agenda: to continue a violent Jihad against Indians. (This was initially backed by Pakistan, but since 9/11 and the fall of the Taliban, Pakistan has had to retreat from this kind of support.)
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Old 06-24-2005, 10:14 AM   #4
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Every day I get more outraged by the willfull blindness of those who still support this war. An those of us who were always against it need to NOT back down! We need to remind folks at every turn that the civil war beginning in Iraq was not only predictable, it was predicted.

I'd also like to add an echo of Financeguy's to AWanderer.
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Old 06-24-2005, 06:03 PM   #5
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I am actually very pleased about this; removing the foreign Jihadist movement from Iraq is a good thing. The elections, drafting of the Iraqi constitution and the moves by the Sunni leadership to get involved in the process are all signs that the envisioned civil war will always be just over the horizon.
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Old 06-24-2005, 07:11 PM   #6
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Think of it as insurgent versus terrorist.
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Old 06-25-2005, 01:30 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Think of it as insurgent versus terrorist.
Maybe it's about time you put you're money where your mouth is.

You're happy to be a cheerleader for the neo-con oil wars, why don't you go over there and kill some 'insurgents'?
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Old 06-25-2005, 02:53 AM   #8
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I have a decent ammount of time to do what I think is right.
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Old 06-25-2005, 11:33 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sherry Darling
Every day I get more outraged by the willfull blindness of those who still support this war.
Yet another person I respect in here resorting to this style of posting.

We are blind for supporting the war?

Willfully....
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Old 06-25-2005, 11:54 AM   #10
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Dread

It does seem like willful blindness to me. Death after death, car bomb after car bomb, and we're winning? I do not think that Iraq is a new Vietnam, but there is a parallel to the unwillingness of our leaders then to admit failure and now. I'm especially worried that the VP and other top civilian leaders have been contradicting what our top militiary guys and CIA have been telling us.

A certain civil war if we pull out, the serious risk of that if we don't. I would feel much better if those who support it in our admin could say, "Ya know, it's not going well at all, and it's important, we did it for good reasons, so we have to see it though." I would disagree, and maintain my stance that anyone who thought we'd have roses thown at us there should lose his or her job for sheer ignorance. But at least I could respect the honesty. They just keep repeating that we're winning as if it's a line they can sell but repeating it enough, and that scares me.

I stand by my point that what we're seeing now *was predicted* by those who opposed the war and by those who did not exactly oppose it but wanted more thoughtful process and planning. I can find plenty of op-eds predicting the low-grade civil war that's going on now from before we invaded, if you like.

I hope this clarifies where I'm coming from.
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Old 06-25-2005, 12:00 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sherry Darling
Dread

It does seem like willful blindness to me. Death after death, car bomb after car bomb, and we're winning? I do not think that Iraq is a new Vietnam, but there is a parallel to the unwillingness of our leaders then to admit failure and now. I'm especially worried that the VP and other top civilian leaders have been contradicting what our top militiary guys and CIA have been telling us.
As a person who supported the war........

I question the VP.....and the President......

The Generals do not seem to be supporting their conclusions.

However, that has nothing to do with the reasons why I felt it necessary for war.

I think they are two separate issues.

I also think it important to recognize that a large part of the resistance is not coming from Iraqi's but from foriegn soldiers, that want nothing more than for Iraq to become an Islamic state.
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Old 06-25-2005, 12:03 PM   #12
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There was little or no terrorism of significance (unless you count state terrorism caused by Saddam) in Iraq before the invasion.

So the foreign insurgents/terrorists that have come in to Iraq - at the end of the day responsibiliy for the deaths caused by them must be laid at the door at those who led us into the war, and that means primarily Bush/Cheney/Blair.
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Old 06-25-2005, 07:18 PM   #13
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Then they have a responsibility to the Iraqi people to stand by them against this threat until the Iraqi's can stand alone.
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Old 06-26-2005, 07:28 AM   #14
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Dread, I'm glad to hear that you are questioning the Pres and VP--not enough ppl are. Hail, if we're going to do this, let's do it right.

One of the reasons I want us out now is that I don't see them even acknowledging the problems we seem to agree we're facing over there. I think that has deeply compromised our security--our military is tied up in something that we don't have a clear exit plan on.

See, where I get lost in your logic here--what I think is your logic--is that this war to me was ill-conceived to begin with. It was based on bad intel--and if we'd slowed down enough instead of listening to Bush's drumbeat, we would have discovered that. It was based on wishful thinking, also--that we'd be greeted as liberators, etc. I am outraged by how irresponsible the admin was in all of this. I'm angry that the Dems didn't fight it more. I'm angry that so many Americans just take what the admin says as face value (from the above, you don't fall into this category). Democracies can't function this way!

You correctly note that a lot of the fighters are foreign--but I don't take your point there. They're foreign. yes. So? That was predicted by those who have been questioning this war, also. Many of us pointed out that if we invaded Iraq, we'd end up fighting much of the ME.

A-Wander: I do basically believe the "you break it you buy it" approach, yes. But many of us believe it's our presense there that is much of the problem. Hence from that point of view, doing the right thing by Iraq would be leaving.

Of course, they're a "sovereign" nation now, so it's really up to them. LOL
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Old 06-26-2005, 09:12 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sherry Darling
I think that has deeply compromised our security--our military is tied up in something that we don't have a clear exit plan on.

this war to me was ill-conceived to begin with. It was based on bad intel--and if we'd slowed down enough instead of listening to Bush's drumbeat, we would have discovered that.
I´ll go one step further and say intelligence gave the information the leaders wanted to hear. Whether this is the responsibility of intelligence or the responsibility of the US admin, is questionable (even if it would be difficult to prove that the admin knew intelligence was wrong/ infos manipulated).

I, for one, despise leaders who shamelessly and intentionally lie and then try to cover their ass by hiding behind intelligence.
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