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Old 02-28-2005, 04:14 PM   #16
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my original comment was to respond to this:

"these events in these pictures are worse than 911

I personally think this is a ridiculous statement.

This was my response:
"gratuitous humiliation + what some would call torture of prisoners + 1 (or is it 2 or 3)dead = pre planned + 4 hijacked airliners + 2,xxx dead + billions in property damage + economic recession, etc.

I see the logic."

The following response
"abu ghraib
done under the authority of the US government by the military of United states, a country whose president currently preaches freedom and justice

9-11
done by religious fanatics who came from a country (saudi arabia) with an impossibly theocratic and totalitarian regime which also turns out to be supported by the US

i see the logic"

This response linked the two events as both being facilitated by the US, one directly and one indirectly.

This response did not answer my claim that to say Abu Ghraib was worse than 9/11 is outrageous and juvenile.

I don't see the point he was trying to make unless he was trying to imply that US support for Saudi Arabia was the cause of 9/11.

Even if that was true, how does that make this statement "these events in these pictures are worse than 911" true?

Am I missing something here?
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Old 03-01-2005, 03:50 AM   #17
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the religious fanatics are not expected to live up to any standards, US government is (i guess). the shock value of these actions lies not only in the amount of destruction theyve caused, but also in the identity of the involved party. dont dismiss abu ghraib as an isolated event. that was an insult to a war torn nation, humiliating them even more. and of course 9-11 was a terrible event, and it hurt so many, but it was also a wake-up call (not in terms of 'lets go and kick their asses) but more in the lines of 'maybe we shouldnt apply policies that push millions all over the world towards suffering.

does 9-11 compare to all the pain and suffering US caused in the world for the last century? i have serious doubts about that.

although, id like to point out that US has also done a lot of good, just look at bosnia and kosovo, i think it should be held to a different standard than the terrorists it faces.

it was your president who believes such corrupt regimes breed terror (or why else would he attack iraq, continuing his war against terror) and yet feels its ok to support them when convenient. yeah sure, US supports a fundamentalist government and was attacked by hard core fundamentalists, it doesnt make sense. as someone pointed out in the clinton thread 'unintended consequences is a bitch'

in another thread, someone quoted chomsky saying something in the lines of 'what goes around comes around' and pointed out that US policy will eventually create trouble for the US, this is the exact same thing.
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Old 03-01-2005, 01:03 PM   #18
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Melon, i agree that marketing the Iraq invasion as part of the "war on terrorism" (and, then, of course, as part of bringing freedom and democracy) is a fairly thin line.

I'm not sure if you oppose the war or not (i think you do...i do, also), but i'm wondering for those who oppose it would it have been a better "sell" if the the administration had been completely up front and pragmatic about this? If they had just said "Look. We don't like Saddam. We feel this mess in Iraq is partly of our making. We supported him when we wanted to, especially to fight Iran. Now we think he's a dickhead. We want him out. We feel it's our responsibility since we helped prop him up up until the '80s. And, yes, a major part of the reason is the oil and the interest of Americans."

To the opposers: would this have been more palatable? Would you still oppose the war, but maybe not be as offended as you (myself also) are right now thinking about the lines and made-up justifications for invading (i.e. WMD threat)?
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Old 03-01-2005, 01:21 PM   #19
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i dont think it would change much.. a lot of people knew the WMDs would probably turn out to be bogus anyway.
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Old 03-01-2005, 02:27 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by all_i_want
i dont think it would change much.. a lot of people knew the WMDs would probably turn out to be bogus anyway.

this is in no way true

almost every poster in this forum believed some sort of WMD's would be found


the Administration stated it was a fact

nobody believed the Admin would go out on that limb without holding their hidden ace cards.
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Old 03-01-2005, 02:31 PM   #21
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well 'I' and a lot of people where i live didnt buy a word of it. i dont think most of the europeans did either. definitely not the french. but i cant blame the americans. colin powell went up there and said 'These, these and these are the warehouses where WMDs are held. These are the trucks that are used to carry them around etc.'

people tend to believe the person who represents their state on an international level.
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Old 03-01-2005, 02:40 PM   #22
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sorry, i thought you were US citizen
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