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Old 07-12-2003, 12:03 PM   #16
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Originally posted by STING2
I guess it is to difficult for some people to understand that many people living in absolute poverty, who have wondered for decades where certain family members are don't give a rats ass about how many countries form a coalition or whether this is or is not a UN operation. People want to be free of anxiety and torture and the composition of the forces that bring that about matters far less than the results produced.

But if its easier for you to dream otherwise, be my guest.
Sting, I think torture, killings and other human rights violations suck big time. They're massive crimes against humanity. Saddam is a like Ceceauscu and Milosevic. I think a big part of the present griping on the part of *Iraqis* is economics, not politics. The Baghdad shopkeeper I referenced was talking about economics, not politics. That's why they're exasperated with all of the instability and stuff that's going on. Iraqis know how to say "it's the economy stupid" too.
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Old 07-12-2003, 01:48 PM   #17
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Originally posted by verte76


Sting, I think torture, killings and other human rights violations suck big time. They're massive crimes against humanity. Saddam is a like Ceceauscu and Milosevic. I think a big part of the present griping on the part of *Iraqis* is economics, not politics. The Baghdad shopkeeper I referenced was talking about economics, not politics. That's why they're exasperated with all of the instability and stuff that's going on. Iraqis know how to say "it's the economy stupid" too.
*Nods*

I think we're all in agreement that Saddam's a massive creep. I'm glad he's gone (or, at least, we think he is...some reports recently of him being spotted places), I honestly could care less about him.

Angela
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Old 07-14-2003, 07:03 PM   #18
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A recent article brought out how the causualities are moving forever up.

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16394

"Moreover, when you consider that civilian deaths from the three-week war are estimated at 5,500 to 7,000, with military deaths exceeding 10,000, and overall nonfatal casualties totaling 50,000 all together touching family and friends reaching into the millions you have another grave condition feeding insurrection. "

I also saw a report on CBC from Bagdad, showing the mounting heaps of garbage everywhere. It was appalling. Bubonic Plague came to my mind, not to mention typhoid fever, ect. This can only add to the rising tide against Americans.

Then you have the disenchantment of our own soldiers.

"No wonder many American soldiers are demoralized and angry. Some have written their congressmen requesting repatriation. "Most soldiers would empty their bank accounts just for a plane ticket home," runs one such letter, quoted last week in the Christian Science Monitor. And another: "The way we have been treated and the continuous lies told to our families back home has devastated us all." And another: "We feel like pawns in a game that we have no voice [in]." "

"Naturally the V-word: Vietnam, is turning up frequently in reports from the front. The U.S. command has certainly made the familiar moves. Outgoing Gen. Tommy Franks, facing sharp questions July 9th from the Senate Armed Services Committee, admits the current number of U.S. troops in Iraq, around 148,000, will remain for the "foreseeable future," while Secretary Rumsfeld doubled the estimated military costs to $3.9 billion a month. Meanwhile, America's promises for Iraq ride on a lie that appears more obvious each time Mr. Bremer squashes another attempt at self-governance that is not restricted to hospitals, water or electricity. Nor is the hand-picked Governing Council a substitute for home-grown representation. Washington doesn't want an independent and democratic Iraq to emerge, for one of the first moves its government would make is to order the U.S. out."

The situation in Iraq sours by the day.
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Old 07-14-2003, 08:53 PM   #19
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Heaps of garbage.......horrors. This is scary. There was the cholera outbreak in Basra because of lack of clean water. That was bad enough. Now some other disease is going to break out. Wonderful.
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Old 07-15-2003, 12:52 AM   #20
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Scarletwine,

"Moreover, when you consider that civilian deaths from the three-week war are estimated at 5,500 to 7,000, with military deaths exceeding 10,000, and overall nonfatal casualties totaling 50,000 all together touching family and friends reaching into the millions you have another grave condition feeding insurrection. ""

The 5,000 to 7,000 figure is unsubstantiated estimate. The factual figure is unlikely to be higher than 1,400 that the Iraqi government recorded. In any event, how many of those family and friends would be alive today or have a future in a Saddam controlled Iraq?

Mounting Heaps of Garbage? How about Mounting Heaps of bodies from the days under Saddam, whether it was from War or executions by Saddam. As bad as things are now, ask any Kurd or Shia Iraqi and they will tell you it pales in comparison to life under Saddam.

One should never underestimate the time and effort needed in rebuilding a country of 24 million people that has been under the grip of terror by a man like Saddam for 24 years. Its going to take years. Estimates before the war were that some US troop present would be required for up to 10 years and would need a minimum of 75,000 troops. Its been 3 months since major combat ended in Iraq. Its going to take more time.

Think Bosnia and Kosovo. US troops have been in Bosnia for 7 years and are still working to help build the country. There are still problems in Bosnia, but the situation has improved to the point that Bosnia now has a Standard of Living similar to Russia. Far from perfect of course, but far better than the years of war from 1991-1995 when 300,000 people were killed in a country of 4 million. Kosovo has had US troops for the past 4 years and will continue to for many years to come.

Iraq most likely is a more difficult task of nation building than Bosnia or Kosovo. Again, time, patience and hard work are needed.
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Old 07-15-2003, 01:04 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
I guess it is to difficult for some people to understand that many people living in absolute poverty, who have wondered for decades where certain family members are don't give a rats ass about how many countries form a coalition or whether this is or is not a UN operation. People want to be free of anxiety and torture and the composition of the forces that bring that about matters far less than the results produced.

But if its easier for you to dream otherwise, be my guest.
are you such a dreamer to actually believe were mindless ass-clowns that think iraqis are now living the high-life?

get real.
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Old 07-15-2003, 05:07 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Scarletwine,

"Moreover, when you consider that civilian deaths from the three-week war are estimated at 5,500 to 7,000, with military deaths exceeding 10,000, and overall nonfatal casualties totaling 50,000 all together touching family and friends reaching into the millions you have another grave condition feeding insurrection. ""

The 5,000 to 7,000 figure is unsubstantiated estimate. The factual figure is unlikely to be higher than 1,400 that the Iraqi government recorded. In any event, how many of those family and friends would be alive today or have a future in a Saddam controlled Iraq?

Mounting Heaps of Garbage? How about Mounting Heaps of bodies from the days under Saddam, whether it was from War or executions by Saddam. As bad as things are now, ask any Kurd or Shia Iraqi and they will tell you it pales in comparison to life under Saddam.

One should never underestimate the time and effort needed in rebuilding a country of 24 million people that has been under the grip of terror by a man like Saddam for 24 years. Its going to take years. Estimates before the war were that some US troop present would be required for up to 10 years and would need a minimum of 75,000 troops. Its been 3 months since major combat ended in Iraq. Its going to take more time.

Think Bosnia and Kosovo. US troops have been in Bosnia for 7 years and are still working to help build the country. There are still problems in Bosnia, but the situation has improved to the point that Bosnia now has a Standard of Living similar to Russia. Far from perfect of course, but far better than the years of war from 1991-1995 when 300,000 people were killed in a country of 4 million. Kosovo has had US troops for the past 4 years and will continue to for many years to come.

Iraq most likely is a more difficult task of nation building than Bosnia or Kosovo. Again, time, patience and hard work are needed.
O no, not again Sting2,...funny you mention kosovo and Bosnia. Als those American help is a weapon for getting wat America wants,..

The USA try to presure those goverments to sign a contract for not deliver American soldiers to the international court of justice. If Bosnia and Kosovo not sign, the economic help wil end. And the hipocryte thing is, The USA expect that from the Bosnia and kosovo goverments to hand over their warcriminals to the tribunal in the Netherlands.

If that is the future of Iraq, allah help them.
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Old 07-15-2003, 07:18 AM   #23
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Rono I agree, the US should also be held responsible to an International War Crimes Court. Why should we be exempted?

Sting2,
That response did not address what is going on in Iraq NOW.
No - Kurds and Shia are not saying that - they are also pissed about living conditions. They are glad Sadaam is gone, but not happy with the way the US is handling post-war Iraq.
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Old 07-15-2003, 11:24 AM   #24
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Originally posted by Scarletwine
Rono I agree, the US should also be held responsible to an International War Crimes Court. Why should we be exempted?

Sting2,
That response did not address what is going on in Iraq NOW.
No - Kurds and Shia are not saying that - they are also pissed about living conditions. They are glad Sadaam is gone, but not happy with the way the US is handling post-war Iraq.
Exactly.

Angela
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Old 07-15-2003, 03:11 PM   #25
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Red Ships of Scalla-Festa,

"are you such a dreamer to actually believe were mindless ass-clowns that think iraqis are now living the high-life?"

"get real."

That wasn't at all the point I was making and is something I think you would understand if you would read what I said I little more carefully.
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Old 07-15-2003, 03:15 PM   #26
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Rono,

"O no, not again Sting2,...funny you mention kosovo and Bosnia. Als those American help is a weapon for getting wat America wants,.."

"The USA try to presure those goverments to sign a contract for not deliver American soldiers to the international court of justice. If Bosnia and Kosovo not sign, the economic help wil end. And the hipocryte thing is, The USA expect that from the Bosnia and kosovo goverments to hand over their warcriminals to the tribunal in the Netherlands."

"If that is the future of Iraq, allah help them."

Your words help me to better understand why Europeans failed to stop the deaths of 300,000 innocent people in their backyard. The USA stopped those wars and prevented another 300,000 people from dying. Europe is all talk and no action.
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Old 07-15-2003, 03:21 PM   #27
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STING,

Sorry to bring up the point again, but I wondered what do you think about the US' decision to withdraw aid from countries like Bosnia unless they exempt the US from the International Cout of Justice?
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Old 07-15-2003, 03:33 PM   #28
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Scartletwine,

"That response did not address what is going on in Iraq NOW."
"No - Kurds and Shia are not saying that - they are also pissed about living conditions. They are glad Sadaam is gone, but not happy with the way the US is handling post-war Iraq."

I've studied what living conditions were like for Kurds and Shia under Saddam. It was absolute hell for them. I know you would like to keep those facts out of the picture of whats going now, but you can't. The conditions that Shia and Kurds live in right now are the result of 24 years of rule and repression by Saddam. Their lives are improving now because the USA is there. The USA has to some degree been taken care of the Kurds in the far North for over a decade. I saw a program where villiagers had named their childern after Dick Cheney and George Bush.

Again, 90% of the attacks against US troops are in the Baghdad/Tikrit area where there are Saddam loyalist are.

Nation building takes time, and those that expected no problems once the war ended, do not understand that reality. The Serbs hated and despised the USA in Bosnia when we first came, but the fact of the matter is, the Serbs there are experiencing the best Standard of living they have had in decades now as a result of the US presence.

There are always problems in any nation building process and its easy to point them out. But US soldiers and government officials are working hard night and day to solve these problems and will continue to do so in the months to come. They deserve are praise and support for the incredible job they are doing.
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Old 07-15-2003, 03:38 PM   #29
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Fizzing,

I thought this was Serbia rather than Bosnia. In the case of Bosnia I think they should continue to recieve aid regardless. The International Court Of Justice is something the USA can simply refuse to participate in if it does not agree with the framework. I see no reason to withhold aid from anyone on that.
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Old 07-15-2003, 06:05 PM   #30
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STING2:

well an international court would be the best to punish non-government enemies like Terrorist organisations. And the US were helping a lot and wanted that court a long time ago.
I guess the military strength brought the idea that they might be better of in world with less laws and less justice

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