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Old 07-14-2007, 04:39 PM   #1
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"Iraq, an experiment in an American laboratory." surging. purging, and regurgitating

Quote:
Aide to Iraq PM: U.S. army embarrasses government
07-14-2007 , 18:17 GMT

Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki said Saturday that the Iraqi army and police are capable of keeping security in the country when American forces leave "any time they want."

Al-Maliki told a Baghdad press conference that his government needs "time and effort" to enact the political reforms that Washington seeks - "particularly since the political process is facing security, economic and services pressures, as well as regional and international interference."

"These difficulties can be read as a big success, not negative points, when they are viewed under the shadow of the big challenges," he said.

But one of Al-Maliki top aides, Hassan al-Suneid, was quoted as saying the U.S. was treating Iraq like "an experiment in an American laboratory." He sharply criticised the U.S. military, saying it was committing human rights violations, embarassing the Iraqi government with its tactics and cooperating with "gangs of killers" in its campaign against al-Qaeda in Iraq.

Al-Suneid, a Shiite lawmaker close to al-Maliki, told The Associated Press that al-Maliki has problems with the top U.S. commander Gen. David Petraeus, who works along a "purely American vision." He criticized U.S. overtures to Sunni groups in Anbar and Diyala, encouraging former "insurgents" to join the fight against al-Qaida in Iraq. "These are gangs of killers," he said.

"There are disagreements that the strategy that Petraeus is following might succeed in confronting al-Qaida in the early period but it will leave Iraq an armed nation, an armed society and militias," said al-Suneid.

He said that the U.S. authorities have embarrassed al-Maliki's government through acts such as constructing a wall around Baghdad's Sunni neighborhood of Azamiyah and repeated raids on suspected Shiite militiamen in the capital's eastern slum of Sadr City. He said the U.S. use of airstrikes to hit suspected insurgent positions also kills civilians.

"This embarrasses the government in front of its people," he said, calling the civilian deaths a "human rights violation."

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Old 07-16-2007, 11:36 AM   #2
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pretty much...
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Old 07-16-2007, 11:43 AM   #3
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i think al-Maliki retracted that statement.
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Old 07-16-2007, 11:53 AM   #4
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They get to test their cool new weapons/toys on Iraqi civilians - just like a video game:

Quote:
Deadly drone readied for Iraq

Reaper controlled from Nevada base

By Charles J. Hanley THE ASSOCIATED PRESS


BALAD AIR BASE, Iraq— The airplane is the size of a jet fighter, powered by a turboprop engine, able to fly at 300 mph and reach 50,000 feet. It’s outfitted with infrared, laser and radar targeting, and with a ton and a half of guided bombs and missiles.

The Reaper is loaded, but there’s no one on board. Its pilot, as it bombs targets in Iraq, will sit at a video console 7,000 miles away in Nevada.

The arrival of these outsized U.S. “hunter-killer” drones, in aviation history’s first robot attack squadron, will be a watershed moment even in an Iraq that has seen too many innovative ways to hunt and kill.
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Old 07-16-2007, 02:28 PM   #5
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Oooh you mean like the one on the army website that's used as a recruitment tool?
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Old 07-16-2007, 07:21 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by ntalwar
They get to test their cool new weapons/toys on Iraqi civilians - just like a video game:
Not only that....but this new plane takes more American pilots out of harm's way, provides a steady eye in the sky for American convoys, and can send a real-time video stream of the bad guys shooting at Americans.

First and foremost though, I'm sure it'll be used to target civilians
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Old 07-16-2007, 07:35 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bluer White


a real-time video stream of the bad guys shooting at Americans.

I'm sure it'll be used to target civilians
Dropping bombs on people in their homes

is this what good guys do?

I guess you are in league with BinLaden
He would not consider the people that died on 9/11 civilians either.
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Old 07-16-2007, 07:49 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bluer White




First and foremost though, I'm sure it'll be used to target civilians
C'mon - do you really believe that?
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Old 07-16-2007, 07:57 PM   #9
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I think he doesn't.

I think I kind of do.

The lines are so blurred.



If you are a Sunni Iraqi
and there are foreign, highly armed soldiers, working in coalition with Iranian-sympathizing Shites that are hunting you down in your home and killing you, what would you do?

Who is the civilian?
Who is the patriot defending his homeland?

Who is the invader?
Who belongs there?
Who does not?

Is it wrong to fight to defend your home and family?
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Old 07-16-2007, 09:02 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bluer White

First and foremost though, I'm sure it'll be used to target civilians
Maybe they're not "targeting" them, but they're certainly not avoiding them. The high five figure to low six figure civilian body count confirms it.
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Old 07-16-2007, 09:05 PM   #11
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Originally posted by ntalwar


Maybe they're not "targeting" them, but they're certainly not avoiding them.
This is simply untrue. If the US wanted to carpet bomb the whole country they certainly could. The fact is, we put US soldiers at great risk trying to protect civilians.
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Old 07-16-2007, 11:36 PM   #12
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Originally posted by AEON


This is simply untrue. If the US wanted to carpet bomb the whole country they certainly could. The fact is, we put US soldiers at great risk trying to protect civilians.
Wait a minute. Just because the US isn't carpet bombing, or bombing everyone, doesn't mean they are avoiding civilians as much as they could be. Those things are not mutually exclusive, your statement has no bearing on what ntalwar said.
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Old 07-17-2007, 12:21 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON

If the US wanted to carpet bomb
that is so 70s

we got
shock and awe(some)
now




I won't post pictures of mangled children
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Old 07-17-2007, 12:56 AM   #14
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Originally posted by Varitek


Wait a minute. Just because the US isn't carpet bombing, or bombing everyone, doesn't mean they are avoiding civilians as much as they could be. Those things are not mutually exclusive, your statement has no bearing on what ntalwar said.
The US military goes to near extreme measures to safeguard civilians, which is tremdously difficult in asymmetric warfare, and something almost unprcedented in modern battles.

Although I must concede, because I am currently an Infantry officer in a company that suffered quite a few casualties protecting a neighborhood of civilians - I may be a bit biased.
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Old 07-17-2007, 03:15 PM   #15
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Quote:
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Although I must concede, because I am currently an Infantry officer in a company that suffered quite a few casualties protecting a neighborhood of civilians - I may be a bit biased.
I can understand your "bias", and I am not sure I would even label it that.

I believe you and your friends have been given an impossible task.


What are "you" protecting Iraqis from?

Is any one that is not an Iraqi male "civilian"
or should I ask are unknown Iraqi males deemed to a great risk to you and your men?

I believe Iraqis are capable of rooting out terrorists and bombers themselves.

That is what turned the tide in Al Anbar province.

The information in the article below causes me to believe that a large, long term American presence in Iraq contributes to the problem.

Quote:
Saudis' role in Iraq insurgency outlined

Sunni extremists from Saudi Arabia make up half the foreign fighters in Iraq, many suicide bombers, a U.S. official says.

By Ned Parker
Times Staff Writer

July 15, 2007

BAGHDAD — Although Bush administration officials have frequently lashed out at Syria and Iran, accusing it of helping insurgents and militias here, the largest number of foreign fighters and suicide bombers in Iraq come from a third neighbor, Saudi Arabia, according to a senior U.S. military officer and Iraqi lawmakers.

About 45% of all foreign militants targeting U.S. troops and Iraqi civilians and security forces are from Saudi Arabia; 15% are from Syria and Lebanon; and 10% are from North Africa, according to official U.S. military figures made available to The Times by the senior officer. Nearly half of the 135 foreigners in U.S. detention facilities in Iraq are Saudis, he said.

Fighters from Saudi Arabia are thought to have carried out more suicide bombings than those of any other nationality, said the senior U.S. officer, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the subject's sensitivity. It is apparently the first time a U.S. official has given such a breakdown on the role played by Saudi nationals in Iraq's Sunni Arab insurgency.

He said 50% of all Saudi fighters in Iraq come here as suicide bombers. In the last six months, such bombings have killed or injured 4,000 Iraqis.

The situation has left the U.S. military in the awkward position of battling an enemy whose top source of foreign fighters is a key ally that at best has not been able to prevent its citizens from undertaking bloody attacks in Iraq, and at worst shares complicity in sending extremists to commit attacks against U.S. forces, Iraqi civilians and the Shiite-led government in Baghdad.

The problem casts a spotlight on the tangled web of alliances and enmities that underlie the political relations between Muslim nations and the U.S.

Complicated past

In the 1980s, the Saudi intelligence service sponsored Sunni Muslim fighters for the U.S.-backed Afghan mujahedin battling Soviet troops in Afghanistan. At the time, Saudi intelligence cultivated another man helping the Afghan fighters, Osama bin Laden, the future leader of Al Qaeda who would one day turn against the Saudi royal family and mastermind the Sept. 11 attacks on New York and the Pentagon. Indeed, Saudi Arabia has long been a source of a good portion of the money and manpower for Al Qaeda: 15 of the 19 hijackers in the Sept. 11 attacks were Saudi.

Now, a group that calls itself Al Qaeda in Iraq is the greatest short-term threat to Iraq's security, U.S. military spokesman Brig. Gen. Kevin Bergner said Wednesday.

The group, one of several Sunni Muslim insurgent groups operating in Baghdad and beyond, relies on foreigners to carry out suicide attacks because Iraqis are less likely to undertake such strikes, which the movement hopes will provoke sectarian violence, Bergner said. Despite its name, the extent of the group's links to Bin Laden's network, based along the Afghan-Pakistani frontier, is unclear.

The Saudi government does not dispute that some of its youths are ending up as suicide bombers in Iraq, but says it has done everything it can to stop the bloodshed.

"Saudis are actually being misused. Someone is helping them come to Iraq. Someone is helping them inside Iraq. Someone is recruiting them to be suicide bombers. We have no idea who these people are. We aren't getting any formal information from the Iraqi government," said Gen. Mansour Turki, spokesman for the Saudi Interior Ministry.

"If we get good feedback from the Iraqi government about Saudis being arrested in Iraq, probably we can help," he said.

Defenders of Saudi Arabia pointed out that it has sought to control its lengthy border with Iraq and has fought a bruising domestic war against Al Qaeda since Sept. 11.

"To suggest they've done nothing to stem the flow of people into Iraq is wrong," said a U.S. intelligence official in Washington, who spoke on condition of anonymity. "People do get across that border. You can always ask, 'Could more be done?' But what are they supposed to do, post a guard every 15 or 20 paces?"

Deep suspicions

Others contend that Saudi Arabia is allowing fighters sympathetic to Al Qaeda to go to Iraq so they won't create havoc at home.

Iraqi Shiite lawmaker Sami Askari, an advisor to Prime Minister Nouri Maliki, accused Saudi officials of a deliberate policy to sow chaos in Baghdad.

"The fact of the matter is that Saudi Arabia has strong intelligence resources, and it would be hard to think that they are not aware of what is going on," he said.

Askari also alleged that imams at Saudi mosques call for jihad, or holy war, against Iraq's Shiites and that the government had funded groups causing unrest in Iraq's largely Shiite south. Sunni extremists regard Shiites as unbelievers.

Other Iraqi officials said that though they believed Saudi Arabia, a Sunni fundamentalist regime, had no interest in helping Shiite-ruled Iraq, it was not helping militants either. But some Iraqi Shiite leaders say the Saudi royal family sees the Baghdad government as a proxy for its regional rival, Shiite-ruled Iran, and wants to unseat it.
there is an endless supply of these people

They were not in Iraq until we created targets for them

The Iraqis, just like the Saudis are able to squash these people when they pop up, all that has to happen is we need to let them take care of it for themselves.
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