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Old 05-28-2003, 01:32 AM   #31
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whenhiphopdrovethebigcars,

"Nah, I will not have to explain. Why should I? Originally, this thread was about Iran, and we are off topic."

Don't ask me, your the one that posted it.

As far as Hitler goes, I could also say that Hitler would not have risen to power if he had been allowed to go to Art School. The obligation to intervene in Germany actually came after 1933 when Hitler finally assumed absolute power and it was obvious that domestic opposition had no chance of removing him and restoring democracy.

"Often, there are other possibilities of preventing a war than pre-emptively attacking. In many cases, military interventions are not the only solution, though I can understand you might think so, respecting that you are coming from a family with military experience."

I'm well aware of that and only believe the military option should be used when its clear that other options will not work and when the cost of not using the military option is greater than the cost of using the military operation.

Now on to Iran. The Bush Administration has made no arguement for a war against Iran. Iran is not currently in violation of any UN security council resolutions passed under Chapter VII rules. They have not invaded any countries in over two decades with the exception of Iraq. But Iran has been a supplier of terrorism against Israel and its threats by conservatives in the government to overrun the Persian Gulf during the Iran/Iraq war of the 1980s cannot not be forgotten.

Still, Iran is not nearly as strong from a military point of view as Iraq once was. They also are not positioned geographically as well to threaten the worlds oil supplies like Iraq was. In addition, there is not a dictatorship like Iraq's Saddam in Iraq. Where Saddam had total power and was naive, a miscaculator, and totally unpredictable, government power in Iran is not totally in the hands of any single faction. The Mullahs do not have anywhere near the power that Saddam had. There are also some strong liberal factions developing in Iran.

Iran is not the police state that Iraq was and the population is very young and will get even younger in the next 20 years. Over the next 20 years, the population of Iran will overtake the population of Russia. The situation is ripe for change.

The biggest concern currently though is suspected aid being given to Al Quada and the possible development of Nuclear Weapons. Iran is not Saddam's Iraq and would not pose the same level of threat that Iraq would, even when Nuclear Weapons are brought into the equation. Still, there is the possibility for military action if it is found that Iran has become a haven for Al Quada. Also, a nuclear armed Iran may be to big of a risk to take.

Hopefully a more moderate government can come to power that will direct the country away from Nuclear Weapons development and possible support for Al Quada. But if that does not happen or in fact the reverse happens, a war would be likely.

As far as immediate military action, I think only a sudden strong link between Al Quada and Iran could create that. I could be wrong but I think Iran has a ways to go on the Nuclear question before it becomes necessary for possible military action.

As a country, Iran has far more to gain from working with the USA than from developing Nuclear Weapons or supporting any kind of terrorism. Hopefully the moderates in Iran can increase their power and stop any support for terror and nuclear weapons development.

One more thing, with Saddam gone and the Iraqi military destroyed, it is important that US troops remain in Iraq in significant numbers to deter any Iranian interference in the domestic affairs of Iraq. Although there have been some contacts made with Iraq's Shia population, so far any interference if you could call it that has been very limited or non-existent. Hopefully it will stay that way.
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Old 05-31-2003, 07:28 PM   #32
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The Russian press asked Bush if the U.S. was going to attack Iran when he was in St. Petersburg for the 300th anniversary of the city. He said "No".
Thank God. We don't need to attack Iran.
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Old 06-09-2003, 11:36 PM   #33
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Ummm.. Can anyone tell me what the exact evidence that al-Qaeda has been operating in Iran was?>>
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Old 06-10-2003, 11:12 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Iran has been a potential threat to US security for over two decades now. If they are aiding Al Quada or harboring Al Quada in ways that allow them to regroup and launch more attacks then something has to be done. People here need to take the blinders off for a second and realize that there are some very legitimite security concerns here.
STING2,

You are ready to justify whatever move the US administration makes... According to you the current administration makes no mistakes, blunders - we all witness a model example of a perfect foreign policy.

Let us suppose that the next "legitimate security concern" proclaimed by the US is Russia. Oh, I anticipate your usual substantiation on that.
By the way, we still possess several thousands of nuclear waheads, the best delivery vehicle (SS-18) to use them, we have the largest on Earth stockpiles of chemical weapons (1/3rd of all produced) - Saddam's "WMD" (where is it? btw) is toys compared to what we got. Come on, guys! It's time to bomb Russia! After all it's been you legitimate concern since the WW II...
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Old 06-10-2003, 11:16 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep
Sting,

I wonder if you are familiar with the concept, "It is impossible to prove a negative "?
Such as, "There are no UFOs" "Bigfoot does not exist."
"There are no longer any WMD in Iraq."
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Old 06-10-2003, 12:56 PM   #36
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Amna:

i can't help you with the Iran and AlQuaida case at the moment, but maybe that's interesting for you:

NY Times published an article (based on security agency information) That Al Quaida didn't work together with Saddam.

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Old 06-10-2003, 01:54 PM   #37
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ALEXRUS,


"You are ready to justify whatever move the US administration makes... According to you the current administration makes no mistakes, blunders - we all witness a model example of a perfect foreign policy."

I never once said that. I judge on a case by case basis. So far the US administration has done an excellant job.





"Let us suppose that the next "legitimate security concern" proclaimed by the US is Russia. Oh, I anticipate your usual substantiation on that.
By the way, we still possess several thousands of nuclear waheads, the best delivery vehicle (SS-18) to use them, we have the largest on Earth stockpiles of chemical weapons (1/3rd of all produced) - Saddam's "WMD" (where is it? btw) is toys compared to what we got. Come on, guys! It's time to bomb Russia! After all it's been you legitimate concern since the WW II..."


The Soviet Union was a massive threat for 46 years during the Cold War. It was difficult enough to find away to deter a Soviet military invasion of Western Europe, but the USA along with NATO succeeded in doing just that, which is why World War III never happened. The difference between the Soviet Union and rogue nations today (Iran, Iraq, North Korea etc) is that the Soviet Union was far more rational and conservative in its actions to achieve its long term goals. They were much more sensitive and aware of NATO, the USA, China's actions and abilities and because of this were easier to deter. More importantly, the USA, NATO, China, never came close to having the ability to actually removing a Soviet regime through military force, even if it was clearly justified. Such offensive military action against such a large country requires a much greater military force. The USA, NATO, China, barely had enough to defend themselves let alone be able to launch an attack. This of course without considering the complications that Nuclear Weapons pose for any such situations.

With the end of the Soviet Union, Russia has taken on much of that countries former Nuclear Stockpile although it is being reduced. The Russian military is less than 20% of what the Soviet military was back in 1989. Russia's relations with the USA and Europe are much more friendly and there has been a lot of cooperation on disarmament. Russia is apart of the European program of "partnership for peace" and has symbolic status as a "junior partner" in NATO.

Yes, Russia, still has nuclear weapons. So does France, United Kingdom, China, and Israel. What makes them different from a country like Iraq is BEHAVIOR!

It is not SADDAMs WMD by itself that is a threat. It is SADDAM behavior + his WMD that makes him a threat. Verifiably take either one away, and the threat does not exist in a way that requires military action like was performed in Operation Iraqi Freedom.
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Old 06-11-2003, 12:34 PM   #38
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STING 2,

Ok. I am glad you did not overreact to my provocation
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