Iran....Getting Scary
- Thread starter Dreadsox
- Start date
The friendliest place on the web for anyone that follows U2.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
TylerDurden
War Child
I think it's fairly obvious to say that Israel bombing Iran (even if it were just an isolated strike against a facility) would, to put it lightly, not go down to well.
Nth Korea and Iran... I dunno. I think it could get to an ugly point quickly, and that both could be easily avoided. I think both are paranoid about being 'next' on the US hit list, and the US is kind of fostering that idea, not saying yes or no, just 'you never know' and see what they do next.
Nth Korea and Iran... I dunno. I think it could get to an ugly point quickly, and that both could be easily avoided. I think both are paranoid about being 'next' on the US hit list, and the US is kind of fostering that idea, not saying yes or no, just 'you never know' and see what they do next.
Klaus
Refugee
Such a strike dosn't help the peace process down there. But it's better than invading Iran to turn off that plant.
Klaus
Klaus
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
Israel's 1981 preemptive strike probably increased the stability in the region over time. Imagine Iraq with nukes in the 80's.
If Iran is following North Korea footsteps, we may see the new welfare scam - Pay me or I'll build nuclear weapons.
If Iran is following North Korea footsteps, we may see the new welfare scam - Pay me or I'll build nuclear weapons.
Klaus
Refugee
nbcrusader:
The arab countries were asking for a WMD-free mid east half a year ago in the UN.
But of course Israel and the US were against it.
As long as one country has WMDs the other think they need them too because of the balance of power
Klaus
The arab countries were asking for a WMD-free mid east half a year ago in the UN.
But of course Israel and the US were against it.
As long as one country has WMDs the other think they need them too because of the balance of power
Klaus
verte76
Blue Crack Addict
This scares the 
out of me. I hope they don't do it.
out of me. I hope they don't do it.
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
Klaus said:
Arab countries have a bad track record of attacking Israel. Giving one Jewish nation and a dozen Arab nations equal military strength is not a balance of power.
Rono
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
With the USA as best friend of Israel, there will no balance ever,..
Amna
The Fly
The o nly threat that Iran holds is that it is a developing Muslim Power, and people are scared shi**** about it, cuz they don't know what to expect.... All they see, are Shias doing mathom (self-hitting), which media has totallyl exagerated to taint them as agressive animals... When reallly, the tradition of mathom is kept moderate (lite tape on the heart) for the sake of the martodom of the Prophet's family.... A few people take it to the extreme of really beating themselves hard with knives, etc.
Before we start freaking out, maybe we should learn a little more about Iran, and realize that it isn't that much of a threat that many are blowing it out to be...
This is a country that was battling colonization from Western powers, and they defeated them.. This is why they pose a threat...
Iran itself has a high literacy rate; 90 per cent of women are educated, more women hold positions in the government then they do in the American government...
Iran's economy is steadily growing.... It is trying to transition to a democratic state... It has gone out of its way to try and befriend America... But after Bush refering to them as the axis of evil, well , lets just say that they were turned off (who wouldn't be)...
The reason why Iran holds a threat to the West and many Muslim countries is becuase the minority, Shia Muslims (who for some reason lack respect from society in general) are setting up a society that is strong and has a religious back bone to it...
Honestly, the Uranium level is high, probably also becuase of disposable waste, I don't believe its right that Iran should have nucleaur weapons... BUT GUESS WHAT, ALMOST EVERY FREAK'N STATE HAS IT... For military sake... And just becuase the US feels intimidated by it, they feel as though they can stick their noses into Iran's business...
Iran hasn't even attacked anyone, and people are all of a sudden wanting to but into their affairs....
What the hell, we should first consider fixing our own screw ups before creating more...
As for Israel, I don't even wanna go there.. Honestly, I think someone should push Sharon aside before he creates anymore terrorist acts....
I swear, I wonder if Sharon and Bush are having a secret affair??>>??
Iran has been beaten up badly from the US, yet it survived as a state... If they are willing to create a relationship after the US after the US had tried to destroy it as a state... Just imagine the tolerance it has held for the West.... Come on, throw me a freakn' bone, give Iran some credit...
Lets try to build an understanding with Iran, and promote its goal of democracy.. Instead of shunning Iran as something as it is not, just for the power trip that the US and Israel might gain from this...
_I love the US, but I'm sick and tired of its hypocrytical ways...
After the War on Iraq, people should understand its hypocritical ways... We support the UN when we want to, then we go against it ourselves... We accuse a nation of holding WMDs , then we discover that they don't have any.... WAKE UP, WE NEED TO REALIZE THAT WE ARE CREATING ENEMIES AFTER ENEMIES, ESP IN THE MIDDLE EAST... With people in Iran, we should focus in building a good relationship....
peace
- and I pray for Iran
Before we start freaking out, maybe we should learn a little more about Iran, and realize that it isn't that much of a threat that many are blowing it out to be...
This is a country that was battling colonization from Western powers, and they defeated them.. This is why they pose a threat...
Iran itself has a high literacy rate; 90 per cent of women are educated, more women hold positions in the government then they do in the American government...
Iran's economy is steadily growing.... It is trying to transition to a democratic state... It has gone out of its way to try and befriend America... But after Bush refering to them as the axis of evil, well , lets just say that they were turned off (who wouldn't be)...
The reason why Iran holds a threat to the West and many Muslim countries is becuase the minority, Shia Muslims (who for some reason lack respect from society in general) are setting up a society that is strong and has a religious back bone to it...
Honestly, the Uranium level is high, probably also becuase of disposable waste, I don't believe its right that Iran should have nucleaur weapons... BUT GUESS WHAT, ALMOST EVERY FREAK'N STATE HAS IT... For military sake... And just becuase the US feels intimidated by it, they feel as though they can stick their noses into Iran's business...
Iran hasn't even attacked anyone, and people are all of a sudden wanting to but into their affairs....
What the hell, we should first consider fixing our own screw ups before creating more...
As for Israel, I don't even wanna go there.. Honestly, I think someone should push Sharon aside before he creates anymore terrorist acts....
I swear, I wonder if Sharon and Bush are having a secret affair??>>??
Iran has been beaten up badly from the US, yet it survived as a state... If they are willing to create a relationship after the US after the US had tried to destroy it as a state... Just imagine the tolerance it has held for the West.... Come on, throw me a freakn' bone, give Iran some credit...
Lets try to build an understanding with Iran, and promote its goal of democracy.. Instead of shunning Iran as something as it is not, just for the power trip that the US and Israel might gain from this...
_I love the US, but I'm sick and tired of its hypocrytical ways...
After the War on Iraq, people should understand its hypocritical ways... We support the UN when we want to, then we go against it ourselves... We accuse a nation of holding WMDs , then we discover that they don't have any.... WAKE UP, WE NEED TO REALIZE THAT WE ARE CREATING ENEMIES AFTER ENEMIES, ESP IN THE MIDDLE EAST... With people in Iran, we should focus in building a good relationship....
peace
- and I pray for Iran
Amna,
If Iran desires peace and democracy, why are they developing Nuclear Weapons in violation of the commitment to the Non-proliferation treaty, and spending all this money in the process when their country currently has a worse standard of living than the Occupied Palestinian Territories? Iran currently ranks at #106 in the world, behind the Palestinian Territories that are at #98.
Iran had this program long before 9/11, so please don't say W is to blame for this. Also, of the over 191 nations in the world only 9 actually have Nuclear Weapons. Countries like South Africa, Belarus, Ukraine and Kazakstan gave up theirs long ago.
As far as Israel goes, why does Iran support Hezobolah and Humas, two terrorist organizations that engage in suicide bombings of Israely teens in disco's and bars perhaps listening to U2? Why does Iran support two organizations that TARGET innocent women and childern specifically? No accidents or mistakes here, they target them. Why does Iran support groups that commit such disgusting acts?
Please explain to me how the USA tried to destroy Iran as a State?
In regards to Iraq, the USA led the way in enforcing 17 UN resolutions that Saddam had failed to comply with after 12 years. Rather than weakening the UN, that strenthened it. Its countries like France and Germany that have weakened the resolve of the UN and the enforcement of its most serious resolutions. Saddam used WMD more times than any leader in history. Saddam failed to VERIFIABLY DISARM his WMD. As of March 2003 when the War started Saddam was still in violation of 17 UN resolutions passed against him under CHAPTER VII rules.
The only thing hypocritical here is a country that supposedly wants peace and democracy and is against terrorism, yet supports two of the most deadly terrorist organizations in the world, Humas and Hezbolah.
If Iran is serious about Peace and Democracy and is against terrorism, there are some things it should do.
#1 End all support for the terrorist organizations of Humas and Hezbolah and any other terrorist groups.
#2 Stop investing in the development of Nuclear Weapons, a wasteful initiative considering the people in the country have a standard of living that #106 in the world. Iran has plenty of energy resources, its the last country in the world that needs Nuclear energy.
#3 secure its borders and round up any Al Quada that may have fled Afghanistan into its territory.
#4 Allow freedom of the press.
#5 Allow for free and fair ellections.
#6 end the influence of the conservative Mullahs. If they want their own political party fine, but let the people vote for who they want to hold the offices and the influence on national policy.
#7 Respect and enforce basic Human rights and allow for free and fair trials of those accused of Crimes.
#8 Allow for Freedom of Religion.
I could go on, Iran has a long way to go as far as developing into a Peaceful Democracy.
If Iran desires peace and democracy, why are they developing Nuclear Weapons in violation of the commitment to the Non-proliferation treaty, and spending all this money in the process when their country currently has a worse standard of living than the Occupied Palestinian Territories? Iran currently ranks at #106 in the world, behind the Palestinian Territories that are at #98.
Iran had this program long before 9/11, so please don't say W is to blame for this. Also, of the over 191 nations in the world only 9 actually have Nuclear Weapons. Countries like South Africa, Belarus, Ukraine and Kazakstan gave up theirs long ago.
As far as Israel goes, why does Iran support Hezobolah and Humas, two terrorist organizations that engage in suicide bombings of Israely teens in disco's and bars perhaps listening to U2? Why does Iran support two organizations that TARGET innocent women and childern specifically? No accidents or mistakes here, they target them. Why does Iran support groups that commit such disgusting acts?
Please explain to me how the USA tried to destroy Iran as a State?
In regards to Iraq, the USA led the way in enforcing 17 UN resolutions that Saddam had failed to comply with after 12 years. Rather than weakening the UN, that strenthened it. Its countries like France and Germany that have weakened the resolve of the UN and the enforcement of its most serious resolutions. Saddam used WMD more times than any leader in history. Saddam failed to VERIFIABLY DISARM his WMD. As of March 2003 when the War started Saddam was still in violation of 17 UN resolutions passed against him under CHAPTER VII rules.
The only thing hypocritical here is a country that supposedly wants peace and democracy and is against terrorism, yet supports two of the most deadly terrorist organizations in the world, Humas and Hezbolah.
If Iran is serious about Peace and Democracy and is against terrorism, there are some things it should do.
#1 End all support for the terrorist organizations of Humas and Hezbolah and any other terrorist groups.
#2 Stop investing in the development of Nuclear Weapons, a wasteful initiative considering the people in the country have a standard of living that #106 in the world. Iran has plenty of energy resources, its the last country in the world that needs Nuclear energy.
#3 secure its borders and round up any Al Quada that may have fled Afghanistan into its territory.
#4 Allow freedom of the press.
#5 Allow for free and fair ellections.
#6 end the influence of the conservative Mullahs. If they want their own political party fine, but let the people vote for who they want to hold the offices and the influence on national policy.
#7 Respect and enforce basic Human rights and allow for free and fair trials of those accused of Crimes.
#8 Allow for Freedom of Religion.
I could go on, Iran has a long way to go as far as developing into a Peaceful Democracy.
I don't think there should be any nuclear weapons in the Middle East. The region is unstable enough, and I find the Iranian government to be shifty.
However, I can't help thinking that Israel doing this is like the spark that ignites the flame in the Arab world. It's just a plain bad idea.
However, I can't help thinking that Israel doing this is like the spark that ignites the flame in the Arab world. It's just a plain bad idea.
I actually think there are many in the Arab world that would breath easier if Israel took such action. But Iran will not make the mistakes that Iraq made back in 1981 and probably has set up several decoy facilities and other levels of redundency in anticipation of a strike. Also, several countries would have to give Israel the Clearence to fly over their airspace or risk combat with other countries. The US currently controls all the airspace over Iraq and Kuwait. I don't think Turkey is simply going to let Israel fly over its space. Back in 1981, Jordan may not of had the ability to confront Israel in a meaningful way when Israel flew over its airspace to strike the Iraqi Reactor.
Israel may threaten a strike, but they won't do it. #1 it probably would be unsuccessful. #2 It requires to much permission from other countries or else risk a serious incident with someone other than Iran.
Israel may threaten a strike, but they won't do it. #1 it probably would be unsuccessful. #2 It requires to much permission from other countries or else risk a serious incident with someone other than Iran.
verte76
Blue Crack Addict
I have read about the very strong pro-democracy movement in Iran. I wish them success. I agree, there really shouldn't be nuclear bombs anywhere in the Middle East because of all of the instability, and I hope Iran doesn't spend their resources this way. There's education, health care, and other human needs to take care of.
Amna
The Fly
Once again, I totally am against nuclear arms... However, reality is , many states have it, some known some unknown... But this does not justifyy us sticking our nose in their business...
1. America has gone out of its way to destroy Iran's essence, and the essence of Iran.. Lets face it, Iran has a high majority of Shia Muslims, and when the Shah was placed in, the religion was opressed, religious clerics were exiled, women were not allowed to wear scarfs... This was a great injustice to the people... The people were highly opressed... Granted the revolution was a shocker to many, it had its negatives and positives, yet all revolutions have those (sadly)... Anyways, like Israel, Like America, like any other country... The majority influences the culutre of a country... Iran so happens to be a Shia Muslim country which is growing as a state, to be powerful... THIS SCARES THE SHI# out of Saudia Arabia, because Saudi is controlled by Wahabbis, who essentially rather see Shias die...
So, as you can see, not only do many Muslim contries despise Iran for its secular beliefs, but the West is also threatned by them... So, instead of people trying to respect it as a growing nation, and a well developed on, people are starting to accuse them of being an axis of evil.
STING, Obviously you haven't studied enough of the UN to realise how hypocrytical the US has been in its policies...
I really don't wanna go in debt about it, I rather give you some instances on how the US has been hypocrytical with it.
- tHe US use to support the International Court of Justice, now becuase it doesn't work in their favor (exp. Nicaragua), they aren't supporting it.
- THe UN suggested a different route in the War in IRaq, US ignored them.
- Overall, in many events, the US has shown interest when it has want to, and no interest when it has gone against them...
- THe US has led 17 Resolutions against Iraq... Where as the US has gone against double that amount of resolutions...
HOw can the US be streangthining the UN when it doesn't even feel the need to follow by their court, and resolutions... Fine, US may give a lot of money to the UN, but their is only so much money can do untill it is all made useless because the US just totally disgraces the International community for its own needs.
- Please, Israel has WMD, and they are by no means a stable state.
- THE POINT IS, IRAN HAS NOT TARGETED AMERICA BY NO MEANS, AMERICA IS TARGETING IRAN.
- SADDAM AND MOHAMMED KHATAMI ARE TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT LEADERS, YOU CAN'T COMPARE THEM.... Khatami isn't a lunatic...
- Listen, free votes, right, just as the US has a backward system of voting, IRan is still developing its system... JUst because it isn't a perfect Democracy, and believe me, I don't know of any state that is, doesn't mean it is a target...
- I AM SAYING THAT IRAN IS A DEVELOPING AND POTENTIAL POWER... IF THE US CAN'T TRACK THE TERRORISM IN OUR OWN COUNTRY, HOW DO YOU EXPECT IRAN TO... LETS FACE IT, ITS FREAKEN HARD.... just b/c individuals that have ties with al' queda might have slept over in Iran, doesn't mean Iran is supporting them.. It is Al' Queda and the Taliban that have been killing Shia Muslims...
- All I'm trying to say, is that the US should cool it... and respect Iran....
- Btw, there is freedom of religion in Iran.. True, people are racist, and I despise that, but that is something that Iran has to develop... The US suffered and still suffers from this disease of prejiduce....
ONe thing that pisses me off, is that America has developed and has done some pretty nasty things in the past, if any country dares to follow the same footsteps, esp. if they are Muslim countries, well then, they are marked as an evil country, or a terrorist harboring country... GIVE ME A BREAK..
PEACE
-
1. America has gone out of its way to destroy Iran's essence, and the essence of Iran.. Lets face it, Iran has a high majority of Shia Muslims, and when the Shah was placed in, the religion was opressed, religious clerics were exiled, women were not allowed to wear scarfs... This was a great injustice to the people... The people were highly opressed... Granted the revolution was a shocker to many, it had its negatives and positives, yet all revolutions have those (sadly)... Anyways, like Israel, Like America, like any other country... The majority influences the culutre of a country... Iran so happens to be a Shia Muslim country which is growing as a state, to be powerful... THIS SCARES THE SHI# out of Saudia Arabia, because Saudi is controlled by Wahabbis, who essentially rather see Shias die...
So, as you can see, not only do many Muslim contries despise Iran for its secular beliefs, but the West is also threatned by them... So, instead of people trying to respect it as a growing nation, and a well developed on, people are starting to accuse them of being an axis of evil.
STING, Obviously you haven't studied enough of the UN to realise how hypocrytical the US has been in its policies...
I really don't wanna go in debt about it, I rather give you some instances on how the US has been hypocrytical with it.
- tHe US use to support the International Court of Justice, now becuase it doesn't work in their favor (exp. Nicaragua), they aren't supporting it.
- THe UN suggested a different route in the War in IRaq, US ignored them.
- Overall, in many events, the US has shown interest when it has want to, and no interest when it has gone against them...
- THe US has led 17 Resolutions against Iraq... Where as the US has gone against double that amount of resolutions...
HOw can the US be streangthining the UN when it doesn't even feel the need to follow by their court, and resolutions... Fine, US may give a lot of money to the UN, but their is only so much money can do untill it is all made useless because the US just totally disgraces the International community for its own needs.
- Please, Israel has WMD, and they are by no means a stable state.
- THE POINT IS, IRAN HAS NOT TARGETED AMERICA BY NO MEANS, AMERICA IS TARGETING IRAN.
- SADDAM AND MOHAMMED KHATAMI ARE TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT LEADERS, YOU CAN'T COMPARE THEM.... Khatami isn't a lunatic...
- Listen, free votes, right, just as the US has a backward system of voting, IRan is still developing its system... JUst because it isn't a perfect Democracy, and believe me, I don't know of any state that is, doesn't mean it is a target...
- I AM SAYING THAT IRAN IS A DEVELOPING AND POTENTIAL POWER... IF THE US CAN'T TRACK THE TERRORISM IN OUR OWN COUNTRY, HOW DO YOU EXPECT IRAN TO... LETS FACE IT, ITS FREAKEN HARD.... just b/c individuals that have ties with al' queda might have slept over in Iran, doesn't mean Iran is supporting them.. It is Al' Queda and the Taliban that have been killing Shia Muslims...
- All I'm trying to say, is that the US should cool it... and respect Iran....
- Btw, there is freedom of religion in Iran.. True, people are racist, and I despise that, but that is something that Iran has to develop... The US suffered and still suffers from this disease of prejiduce....
ONe thing that pisses me off, is that America has developed and has done some pretty nasty things in the past, if any country dares to follow the same footsteps, esp. if they are Muslim countries, well then, they are marked as an evil country, or a terrorist harboring country... GIVE ME A BREAK..
PEACE
-
Amna
The Fly
O, and one other thing, we aren't even sure if Iran has a developing Nuclear weapon, and if it does, well its wrong... But tell that to all other states.
O, and hezbullah and hamas are seperate from the Irani government, Iran does not fund them, if you think that iran funds them because they sleep in the country... Well, you might as well count the US as a terrorist harboring country...
My simple point is that the US is creating more and more enemies by its little shopping spree in the ME.
For god sake, let Iran develope.... DO WE NEED TO DESTROY ANOTHER COUNTRY?????
O, and finally, heres a list of things I think the US should work on to establish a fair democracy:
End all support for the Sharon administration, that has been responsible for thousends and thousends of deaths from Lebanon to the West Bank (and I mean innocent civilians deaths).
#2 Stop investing in the development of Nuclear Weapons, a wasteful initiative considering the people in the country have a standard of living that #106 in the world. AMERICA has plenty of energy resources, its the last country in the world that needs Nuclear energy. Invest in health care, education, etc.
#3 secure its borders and round up any KKK, Al Qaeda, and other extreme individuals.
#4 Allow freedom of the press.
#5 Allow for free and fair ellections.
#6 end the influence of the conservative politicians and bias media outlets. If they want their own political party fine, but let the people vote for who they want to hold the offices and the influence on national policy.
#7 Respect and enforce basic Human rights and allow for free and fair trials of those accused of Crimes.
Looks like America has its own lists of faults.......... :S
TELL ME SOMETHING, HOW THE HELL DID AMERICA DEVELOP AS A COUNTRY, AND WHY SHOULDN'T WE BE CONSIDERED AN AXIS OF EVIL?
I don't wanna keep on butchering America, but listen, we claim to be a moral country, and yet we are defying others right of development through our own self interest and ignorence...
O, and hezbullah and hamas are seperate from the Irani government, Iran does not fund them, if you think that iran funds them because they sleep in the country... Well, you might as well count the US as a terrorist harboring country...
My simple point is that the US is creating more and more enemies by its little shopping spree in the ME.
For god sake, let Iran develope.... DO WE NEED TO DESTROY ANOTHER COUNTRY?????
O, and finally, heres a list of things I think the US should work on to establish a fair democracy:
End all support for the Sharon administration, that has been responsible for thousends and thousends of deaths from Lebanon to the West Bank (and I mean innocent civilians deaths).
#2 Stop investing in the development of Nuclear Weapons, a wasteful initiative considering the people in the country have a standard of living that #106 in the world. AMERICA has plenty of energy resources, its the last country in the world that needs Nuclear energy. Invest in health care, education, etc.
#3 secure its borders and round up any KKK, Al Qaeda, and other extreme individuals.
#4 Allow freedom of the press.
#5 Allow for free and fair ellections.
#6 end the influence of the conservative politicians and bias media outlets. If they want their own political party fine, but let the people vote for who they want to hold the offices and the influence on national policy.
#7 Respect and enforce basic Human rights and allow for free and fair trials of those accused of Crimes.
Looks like America has its own lists of faults.......... :S
TELL ME SOMETHING, HOW THE HELL DID AMERICA DEVELOP AS A COUNTRY, AND WHY SHOULDN'T WE BE CONSIDERED AN AXIS OF EVIL?
I don't wanna keep on butchering America, but listen, we claim to be a moral country, and yet we are defying others right of development through our own self interest and ignorence...
verte76
Blue Crack Addict
You're right about the Wahhabis in Saudi Arabia being scared of the Shia. Iran is the only Shia state in the world and this has the Sunnis in other countries uptight, to say the least. Who bombed the Shia mosque in Iraq? Wahhabis! I'm taking pain pills for sciatica so forgive me if I make an absent-minded mistake. I know some of the people busted for the mosque bombing were from Saudi Arabia. I do think there are plenty of peace-loving people in Saudi Arabia who do not want to bomb Shia mosques or do anything else to hurt them or anyone else. However there are obviously people from that country who don't care what they do to hurt Shia Moslems as well as people from the U.S, Britain, and even the U.N. I hope these evil people can be stopped. The mosque bombing made me sick. 
Amna
The Fly
YOu are one of the few people who have just plain, right out, has stated that without trying to justify it or give a reason for it...
Thank you verte, I can always count on you for having an honest out right oppinion...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyways, i didn't wanna bash the US to much on its lame relation with the UN...
But that damn veto rule, can you believe that it only takes one veto out of all the members to ignore a problem or issue... it sux, this has been abused by not only the US, but in the past by the Russians, etc....
I mean, the US is not the only membe who uses the UN when they want to...
I just wanted to say that the US is not, by all means, the only hypocritical, developed, state.
------------------------------------------------------
peace
Thank you verte, I can always count on you for having an honest out right oppinion...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyways, i didn't wanna bash the US to much on its lame relation with the UN...
But that damn veto rule, can you believe that it only takes one veto out of all the members to ignore a problem or issue... it sux, this has been abused by not only the US, but in the past by the Russians, etc....
I mean, the US is not the only membe who uses the UN when they want to...
I just wanted to say that the US is not, by all means, the only hypocritical, developed, state.
------------------------------------------------------
peace
Similar threads
