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Old 01-04-2008, 12:14 AM   #271
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Well, I wouldn't say that. How else would you explain an incompetent boob like Dubya being elected twice in a row in the Dems have such a strong backing in this country?
The Supreme Court stated that it would irreparably damage candidate Bush to keep counting the votes in Florida so that explains #1.

#2 is a mix of Kerry not being ideal and Bush shamelessly frightening your population into submission.

This is all based on the electoral college. Regardless of the candidates in November, you're maybe going to look at a half a dozen states. The other 40+ will go the way they always do. National polls really mean nothing.
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Old 01-04-2008, 12:15 AM   #272
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national polls right now mean NOTHING.

In a few weeks
very good chance
Iowa means NOTHING.
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Old 01-04-2008, 12:15 AM   #273
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the Republicans have always hated blacks
Come on Irvine, don't say that when it is blatantly false. You're smarter than that. I could reply with the whole "Democrats hate so-and-so" argument if I wanted, but I'd rather not.
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Old 01-04-2008, 12:16 AM   #274
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Well, I wouldn't say that. How else would you explain an incompetent boob like Dubya being elected twice in a row in the Dems have such a strong backing in this country?


i'm talking specifically about the 2008 elections -- it really hasn't started yet and national polls do more to indicate name recognition than anything else. why is Rudy winning nationally? why did Hillary have a double digit lead over Obama as of yesterday?


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However, in 10-20 years, I think the US will be predominately liberal, as many of those 18-20 year olds you mentioned will have grown up and will probably remain as they are politically, and they will influence their children, and so on.
everything is trending blue. look at Virginia. look at the mountain West. yes, Americans will probably retain their "conservative" values of lower taxes, smaller government, and general sense of patriotism and righteousness at the core of whatever might be considered American "ideals." conservatives have co-opted these things, and done so quite well.

but as social issues go, as universal health care goes, as distrust of the need for American military intervention in whatever foreign hotspot goes, all is trending to the Left.
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Old 01-04-2008, 12:17 AM   #275
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Come on Irvine, don't say that when it is blatantly false. You're smarter than that. I could reply with the whole "Democrats hate so-and-so" argument if I wanted, but I'd rather not.


you've heard of the Southern Strategy, yes?

Willie Horton?

Welfare Queens?

okay, they don't "hate" blacks. they demonize them in order to get votes from voters who hate blacks.
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Old 01-04-2008, 12:18 AM   #276
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Lincoln was a great man with great skill. I don't see that in Obama.
Many people didn't see that in Lincoln either. They thought him unsophisticated, unintelligent, a country rube completely unsuited for high office--he wasn't even particularly compellling as a public speaker by their standards (The Gettysburg Address was not well reviewed. Considered too short for one thing.). He was often compared to an ape.

The key is not just--this guy has held office for a bunch of years, this guy's run a state (lot of good that did us with Bush), or this persons been around the Washington beltway a time or two--it's how does this person think? How does this person approach the issues? Are they business as usual or are they thinking differently. I think Obama has what it takes to be a great leader and a great president--if he has the guts to stick to who he is and not become watered down by the process of getting there.
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Old 01-04-2008, 12:18 AM   #277
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Sure Stowe's book may have been a turning point.


it was the "brokeback mountain" of it's time.

an emotional argument, not a political one.
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Old 01-04-2008, 12:19 AM   #278
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In a few weeks
very good chance
Iowa means NOTHING.


that could well be true.

but can't you, passionate anti-racist that you are, find something good about a "clean, articulate" black man winning a 95% white state?
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Old 01-04-2008, 12:20 AM   #279
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i'm talking specifically about the 2008 elections
Yeah, sorry, I figured that out and edited my post accordingly. And you're right. At this point, national polls are nothing but name recognition and are a general popularity contest. This thing is far from over; many skeletons left to drag out of the closet, botched debates, and general mudslinging left to come.
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Old 01-04-2008, 12:22 AM   #280
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If I watch a fellow human being being beaten to death by his slave owning master. I hope I would risk my life to save him.
Not read a book.
But what's your point about John Brown making more of a difference than Lincoln?
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Old 01-04-2008, 12:24 AM   #281
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Come on Irvine, don't say that when it is blatantly false. You're smarter than that. I could reply with the whole "Democrats hate so-and-so" argument if I wanted, but I'd rather not.
He's right. They only started hating blacks in the past 40 years or so. Before that it was the Democrats (especially in the South) that were anti-black.
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Old 01-04-2008, 12:24 AM   #282
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Old 01-04-2008, 12:26 AM   #283
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He's right. They only started hating blacks in the past 40 years or so. Before that it was the Democrats (especially in the South) that were anti-black.


'tis fun to be part of a despised minority, no?

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Old 01-04-2008, 12:27 AM   #284
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He's right. They only started hating blacks in the past 40 years or so. Before that it was the Democrats (especially in the South) that were anti-black.
Tell me how Republicans hate black people.
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Old 01-04-2008, 12:28 AM   #285
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My argument is simply this--if a man of little "experience" could do his job well in perhaps the most crucial point in our nations history, how can we say that a similar person can't do the same now.
I have very low expectations for Obama

and if he gets the Dem nomination
I expect to vote for him

to be honest
I had very low opinion of Bill Clinton's qualifications in 1992 and did not vote for him

however, by 96 I was quite impressed with him and it was easy to vote for him over Bob Dole, his best days were behind him.

in 2000 I had extremely low expectations for W and easily voted for Gore
W is amazing, he keeps making me lower my opinion beyond what I thought was possible

so Obama, if you get the nom
please be like Clinton in 92
and surprise me with skills beyond my estimation.
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