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Old 02-14-2006, 11:19 PM   #31
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Originally posted by yolland

The ceremony is just a marker, nothing more--you became Bat Mitzvah the day you turned 12, period. Meaning you were fully and autonomously invested on that day with the right to decide for yourself whether to be observant or not. The ceremony has no effect on that; it is just a celebration.
yeah I understand that, but that's almost the point. I care about my heritage and all but no aspect of the religion or any religion does much for me. However I think the *ceremony* meant something to my grandparents and I wish I would've considered that at the time, esp. since I already had all the Hebrew memorized and everything. Of course I could do one now but as I don't believe in a god and my parents/friends know that, I think it might seem a little disingenuous at this point.
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Old 02-14-2006, 11:38 PM   #32
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guys any religion other than christianity was revealed by satan. and YES he does have red horns. i know, i recently sold him my soul.

personally, i don't think i could marry someone who i knew would be spending eternity in a lake of hellfire while i am in heaven singing songs and eating marshmallows. it would totally ruin my god-high.
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Old 02-14-2006, 11:50 PM   #33
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Originally posted by Muggsy
while I was reading your post a question came to my mind: is it possible to raise children with ethical principles without religious dogma? I was raised catholic, I don't go to church, but I try to keep some of the moral principles that I learnt through religion. Obviously things will get more complicated for an interfaith marriage, what do you think about it?
Not sure if you were addressing me or not, but sure, of course you don't need religious observance to raise principled, morally strong children. For that matter, even if you do raise your kids religious, that obviously doesn't guarantee they'll be better human beings for it. I don't think you could meaningfully claim to have raised your child "Catholic" if regular church attendance, first Communion, Confirmation, etc. wasn't part of the bargain, though. But, you could still draw upon Catholic principles in teaching your children values even without that. Nonetheless, there would be a generational disconnect involved, in that your understanding of those values would be grounded in having been raised Catholic, whereas for your kids, it would mean something much vaguer and more abstract. IMHO.
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Originally posted by VertigoGal
Of course I could do one now but as I don't believe in a god and my parents/friends know that, I think it might seem a little disingenuous at this point.
Well that's pretty much what I meant about being autonomously invested to decide for yourself. Ultimately, it's the most respectful thing you could do to not be "disingenuous," as you say.

I went to the wedding of a couple "Catholic" friends a few months ago, and they laughingly confided to me beforehand that they had no intention whatsoever of raising their kids Catholic or practicing Catholicism in any way--they had just lied to the priest about all that in order to make their parents happy and have a nice traditional cathedral wedding like they'd always dreamed of. I laughed along with them because it's really none of my business to object, but frankly, I thought that was pretty terrible.
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Old 02-15-2006, 04:54 AM   #34
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Originally posted by indra


Your post is kind of inflammatory if you aren't willing to back up your contention of bullshit with anything. You say there is a vast amount of bullshit, but you won't put yourself out at all to explain why. So you seethe over the "bullshit" and no one else has a clue why.
If it's inflammatory, then so be it. You personally seem to follow somewhat similar views on religion, so you could possibly understand, I guess. Either way, it is neither here nor there. I am not really interested in attacking anyone's replies so far in this thread for what they appoint as a high priority in their belief set.
But to elaborate, I find religion itself offensive on many levels. I find the consistant exclusion of many religions utterly hard to swallow. I find the ego beyond words. I cant quite comprehend the level it stoops to so much so that someone who is faithless is someone some of us here couldn't marry. I wonder why that is. I look at my husband and religion is very important to him. Yet, we work, and we work very well in terms of where religion fits our relationship. Who here has the problem when they say they cant marry someone of no faith or a different faith? And dont start me on the children and what they are raised to be. I absolutely do not understand the desire to mould children beyond anything that is morally right. Base that on religious tenets if you need, but they are individuals. The most disappointed parents will be those whose children dont meet their expectations or desires, not those who want their children to blossom being their true selves.
I could go on and on, but as history shows, it either goes unlistened to or is as misunderstood as my attempts on religion are.
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Old 02-15-2006, 10:17 AM   #35
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Originally posted by Utoo

"All religions are but different paths to the same place."
That "same place" is salvation.

In some religions, that's God/Heaven, for some combination of religions, that God is in essence the same.

For others salvation may mean something completely different.
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Old 02-15-2006, 07:55 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
I cant quite comprehend the level it stoops to so much so that someone who is faithless is someone some of us here couldn't marry. I wonder why that is. I look at my husband and religion is very important to him. Yet, we work, and we work very well in terms of where religion fits our relationship. Who here has the problem when they say they cant marry someone of no faith or a different faith? And dont start me on the children and what they are raised to be. I absolutely do not understand the desire to mould children beyond anything that is morally right. Base that on religious tenets if you need, but they are individuals. The most disappointed parents will be those whose children dont meet their expectations or desires, not those who want their children to blossom being their true selves.
I don't know if I was part of this vast amount of bullshit you were perceiving or not, but for the record I do agree totally that interfaith marriages can work out beautifully, and that children must above all learn to think for themselves and embody basic rightness and respect in how they relate to others. For me personally, an interfaith marriage would not work--not because I just can't handle not seeing eye-to-eye with my spouse on theological matters (which I don't anyway), but because observing practices and passing on traditions which require some concerted mutuality at the household level is an integral part of who I am and what life I seek to lead. At the same time, I firmly believe this desire is *not* incompatible with my equally strong desire to raise my children to make their own decisions, respect and admire the differing convictions of others, and care as deeply for the welfare of people raised in totally different traditions as they do about their own. I wouldn't have had children at all if I didn't believe this was possible. (And it has absolutely nothing to do with concerns about anyone's afterlife, either--Jewish tradition is all but agnostic on that matter, and I really couldn't give two squats for what bearing that should have on how we comport ourselves here and now.)

I do remain skeptical--not dismissive--of the idea that it's possible to raise children within two different *religious* traditions without making them feel like an awkward interloper in either community, which I wouldn't consider the best standpoint from which to make a mature and autonomous assessment of "where I belong" as an adult. And--not aiming at you here, but speaking more generally about presumptions religious folks sometimes encounter from nonreligious ones--I *do* strongly resent implications that passing on to my kids a tradition I deeply love, and was myself emotionally, intellectually, and spiritually stimulated and nurtured by as a child, is tantamount to rationality-neutering "brainwashing." Or that I myself must be some kind of morally and intellectually underdeveloped pinhead because I was raised religious and continue to practice that. There are all kinds of immoral and irrational bullshit out there in the world--nonreligious as well as religious--with which one can poison oneself and one's children should one choose.

~ Peace
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Old 02-15-2006, 10:40 PM   #37
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060213/...al_cartoons_dc

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Like many mixed-religion couples in Senegal, Muslim Moustapha Ndoye and his wife Diatou Camara were married in a mosque and then a church.

"I believe in my wife's religion and she believes in mine. We are simply on two different paths that both lead to God," said Ndoye, 72. "We are universal people."

After 35 years of marriage, Ndoye and his wife have grown accustomed to one another's faith. Their Dakar home is adorned with pictures of Jesus Christ and of local Muslim leaders.

"The difference of religion has never been a problem for us," said Camara, 65.

This peaceful co-existence runs through Senegalese society. The majority of children attending Catholic schools are Muslims, as many Islamic families recognize educational standards are higher there.

In the city of Ziguinchor, in the southern region of Casamance which is home to many of Senegal's Christians, Muslims and Christians are buried in the same cemetery.

President Abdoulaye Wade has volunteered to host an international summit on Muslim-Christian cooperation.

"Between Muslim and Christians the only thing that should prevail is peace," he said.
Funny how Senegal is more civilized than the U.S. in this respect.

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Old 02-15-2006, 11:18 PM   #38
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In many areas of India such intermarriages (Hindu-Muslim, Hindu-Sikh, and in the Northwest, Buddhist-Muslim) are common as well. Some of my closest friends whom I stay with on research trips there are intermarried (though I know of no one who's attempted to raise their children in both traditions; generally they simply give up on passing them on, or a few agree to raise their children in one tradition--usually the mother's.) However, these couples are no more "civilized" or sophisticated, and their children no wiser or less partisan, than those of the many Hindu couples I know. At best, it gives them less incentive to take one side or another when "interreligious" violence breaks out (though in practice, most do wind up taking sides and tearing apart their families when that happens--look at Kashmir, look at Sarajevo, look at Gujarat). If your marital or childrearing philosophy is based on a stand AGAINST rather than FOR something, religious or otherwise, then that's a catastrophe waiting to happen right there. If you believe in tolerance, peaceful coexistence, and freedom of worship and association--and raise your children to believe in them as well--there's no need for passing on your own religious traditions (whether your children ultimately reject them or not) to present an obstacle to these values.
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Old 02-15-2006, 11:27 PM   #39
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Originally posted by melon
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060213/...al_cartoons_dc



Funny how Senegal is more civilized than the U.S. in this respect.

Melon
why do you say that? interfaith marriages are not seen as wrong or even strange where i live. some people that are extremely religious may find that marrying someone of their own religion better suits them...there is nothing uncivilized about that.
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