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Old 07-12-2006, 08:14 AM   #61
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Originally posted by AEON


Well, this is actually another discussion, but I'll take the bait.

Everything we do has an effect not only on ourselves, but on others. We may not always see the connections; however, they certainly exist and almost always reveal themselves over time in some fashion or another.

The age old saying: "No Man Is an Island unto Himself" - is very true. That is why I believe that in their very essence, objective moral laws are NOT about denying pleasure, but about keeping us from hurting ourselves and each other.
There are many different things going on in bedrooms around the world. Many things that I would not do because my morals would not allow me to do them.

Are we going to create the bedroom police to make certain that moral standards are being upheld?

By denying a Gay person the ability to marry, is not going to stop them from having a homosexual relationship. Therefore, no pleasure denyed, and no morals enforced.

I know two couples who are swingers. Morally, it is not for me. Morally, I do not understand it, at all. Morally, the gay married couple with children in my church are living a much more moral life in my opinion.
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Old 07-12-2006, 08:16 AM   #62
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Originally posted by AEON
Does that necessarily discredit the research that was published by the APA? Your statement is guilty of the ad hominem fallacy.
Apparently, it does to you. The APA's longstanding official position is that sexual orientation is not a mental illness and is not changeable. It has been this way since the 1970s.

But then we'll look for some wacko Christian "psychiatrist" who lets his religion cloud his science. Do you honestly think that a conservative Christian psychiatrist would ever publish a study stating that being gay is, in fact, unchangeable? That, by definition, is not science. It's religion.

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Old 07-12-2006, 08:20 AM   #63
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Here's the question. What is the explanation for otherwise heterosexual men and women turning to homosexuality while in prison? What is the difference between homosexual behavior and orientation in 25 words or less?
Prison sexuality is a separate psychological phenomenon, just as pedophilia is separate from heterosexuality and homosexuality. What makes it different is that, upon release from prison, prisoners will immediately revert to their natural sexual orientation. If they were gay or straight before prison, they will be gay or straight after prison.

In other words, it has nothing to do with sexual orientation, ultimately.

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Old 07-12-2006, 08:30 AM   #64
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I cannot name a single person who chose their sexuality. Do you? Honestly? Know anyone who did, I mean. It's saying to gay people that you cannot accept them as they are, that they have to change or be destined to live with a restricted lovelife. Do you really think Jesus and a fair and just God see it the same way? I cannot see it. This is logic. Surely.
The parable of the Centurion and his "Slave" in the gospels reveals interesting source text. The Gospel of Mark, I believe, wrote it first and uses a Greek word that was commonly used to refer to the Roman practice of "slave lovers." In other words, it very well could have been the parable of the Centurion and his slave lover. It's not all that illogical either, as few Romans would have cared about their slaves, unless they were in love with them. There was more than one Roman emperor who became so distraught over their dead slave lovers that they were decreed to be gods.

If that was the case, then Jesus never once judged. He commended the Centurion for his faith.

The Gospel of Luke is interesting, mainly because it takes this same story and changes the Greek word to something that is concretely about slaves, while keeping the rest of the passage intact. As such, all of this remains in the realm of theory, rather than conclusive Biblical scholarship, but logic and history still dictates how odd it would be for a Roman citizen to care about a slave he wasn't having sex with.

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Old 07-12-2006, 09:04 AM   #65
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But isn't there also the sex of companionship in prison?
If two straight men fall in love in prison and stay together after release, you may have point to this otherwise ridiculous line of questioning.
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Old 07-12-2006, 09:10 AM   #66
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But you are conceding, that at least SOME forms of homosexual behavior is a choice - correct?

No, I would say the majority is about survival. You have those that hold the power and those that may receive a shank to the side if they don't concede.

Seriously the stretches some of you are coming up with to "prove" it's choice are ridiculous.
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Old 07-12-2006, 09:30 AM   #67
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
I know two couples who are swingers. Morally, it is not for me. Morally, I do not understand it, at all.
Morally, the gay married couple with children in my church are living a much more moral life in my opinion.
I agree with that. I don't know how many times we're going to discuss this topic here, certainly I'm not saying it's not worth discussing and we should discuss it many times I suppose....Anyway, in my mind a gay couple living in a loving committed monogamous relationship would always be living a more moral life than any straight couple who is betraying that commitment, as I see and define a betrayal. Obviously not everyone's moral judgment sees that and other behavior as a betrayal and immoral but mine does.

It just always makes me shake my head when heterosexuals want to avoid such comparisons and questions.
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Old 07-12-2006, 09:59 AM   #68
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Originally posted by AtomicBono
Actually engaging in sexual behavior is a choice (unless you're forced, obviously). The IMPULSE is not your choice.


*perfect* distinction.

yes, i choose whether or not to make a "behavioral choice," but i do not choose the gender which makes me want to engage in said "behavior."

i wonder if heterosexuals ever see the multi-dimensional attraction they feel towards the opposite gender as a "behavioral choice"?

i can't stress this enough -- heterosexuality and homosexuality are EXACTLY the same, there's just a difference in gender attraction.
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Old 07-12-2006, 10:06 AM   #69
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Originally posted by AEON
The age old saying: "No Man Is an Island unto Himself" - is very true. That is why I believe that in their very essence, objective moral laws are NOT about denying pleasure, but about keeping us from hurting ourselves and each other.


i agree, in theory, but how does being gay hurt anyone?

homophobia hurts, certainly, in fact it kills. but simply being physically and emotionally attracted to the same gender harms no one, and in fact it is only when one stays in the closet and denies his authentic self that harm is done.
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Old 07-12-2006, 10:18 AM   #70
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
[B]The genetic component is interesting, but presents a logical challenge. It would seem to be a reasonable assumption to say that those with a homosexual gene would reproduce at a lower rate than those without a homosexual gene. Just by the sheer passage of time over the generations, this factor alone should show a substantial decrease in homosexuality if it is to be based on genetic factors alone.
i think this is a misformulation -- no one argues for the presence of a single gene that determines sexual orientation. just like there is no single gene that determines one's race. sexual orientation probably arises from certain genetic potential as well as certain factors in one's environment. but the important thing, as has been repeated, is that it is 100% involuntary, there is no meaningful notion of "choice" when it comes to same gendered attraction.


[q]The areas spoken of here the least include environmental factors and behavior choice. We know there are people who identify themselves as bi-sexual. It would seem in these incidents that choice is the overriding factor. Bisexuality covers a wide range from the incidental to near exclusive same sex relations. I think we understate the broad notion of choice or our ability to control our own actions.[/q]


one can control actions, but one cannot control impulses. bisexuals do pose an interesting question, but i think you overestimate choice. do we choose who we are attracted to? who we fall in love with? who comes into our lives at any particular time?

bisexual is a complex category, it might require it's own thread.
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Old 07-12-2006, 10:48 AM   #71
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Originally posted by melon


But then we'll look for some wacko Christian "psychiatrist" who lets his religion cloud his science. Do you honestly think that a conservative Christian psychiatrist would ever publish a study stating that being gay is, in fact, unchangeable?
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Melon, according to this line of reasoning - we should not take anything you say regarding your interpretation of the Bible's stance on homosexuality because you are gay – and therefore you are much more likely to “read into” the Bible what isn’t really there; or that I shouldn't take Irvine seriously about gay marriage because he is gay and in love – therefore, how could he possibly be objective?

The truth is, we all carry our own baggage into our research. Hoever, even kowing that, I do not discredit anything you or Irvine says. As a matter of fact, both of you have taught me quite a bit. What is important is the research itself.

(BTW - calling ID Pseudoscience was a cute little aside That’s a pretty arrogant statement considering that men like Einstein supported it. But you can address this in the other thread related to this)
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Old 07-12-2006, 11:21 AM   #72
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Originally posted by Angela Harlem


Glad we can resort to a rational dialogue. It's a funny dynamic, these debates. We have one side saying "look at what this does to an entire section of the community" and others who say "look at what you're calling me, based on my beliefs!"

Yeah, I think that if we were discussing in a pub over a beer that we would probably have an easier time of it. (unless 1 beer led to 9)

Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem

I dont mean to offend you, by saying Christianity is bigoted, and I'm sure there is a politer way to say "fuck that".
No offense taken. All is well

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Originally posted by Angela Harlem

That love and acceptance has to mean for all equally? If you look at what Jesus (supposedly) lived to teach (all well and good, by the way), does that mesh with not allowing gay men and women into your church to be married before God? They're His children, too, right?
I do not think that homosexual are being treated as “unequals” because I believe the Bible does not permit them to marry, nor does it mean that they are not loved and accepted by men. If I, as a Christian, believe the Bible is the word of God (which I do), and the word of God calls homosexuality a sin (which it does according to me and ALL conservative scholarship which I generally agree with). We often do not know why something is considered sinful until later. At a basic level, it seems it is probably sinful because it logically goes against the “perfect design” for humans – that homosexuality is a result of the Fall that threw the whole created order into whack.

Nonetheless, marrying a homosexual partner is the equivalent to me going with my own opinion and not trusting God at His word – and I have learned quite some time ago that this line of thinking usually gets me into serious trouble and many people often get hurt.

There is spiritual gift called celibacy. Perhaps that one is there especially for those who do not want to seek a Christian marriage as described, in detail, in the New Testament.


Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem

I'm sure if there's a God, then He knows exactly what he's doing. I reckon if it were an absolute no-no, it'd be more clear than some vague mentionings of in a 2000+ year old book.
It is actually not vague at all to most Biblical scholars. Some posters here have tried to “stretch” their interpretation and the effect has been to make it “seem” unclear (which is why I started posting) – in fact, the Bible is very clear on this subject and sexual immorality as a whole.


Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem

The church itself is a huge institution built on a relatively small rulebook.
It is so much more than that my friend. I challenge you to pick up and read the Gospel of John tonight. I assure you that you will think differently.

Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem

I cannot name a single person who chose their sexuality. Do you? Honestly? Know anyone who did, I mean.
Yes, my aunt. I posted that earlier in this thread.

Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem

It's saying to gay people that you cannot accept them as they are, that they have to change or be destined to live with a restricted lovelife.
Jesus does accept us exactly where we are. Then the Holy Spirit enters into us and begins to mold us into the image of Christ. It is my contention that as a homosexual person, as they became more Christlike, would no longer have a homosexual orientation.
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Old 07-12-2006, 11:37 AM   #73
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Jesus does accept us exactly where we are. Then the Holy Spirit enters into us and begins to mold us into the image of Christ. It is my contention that as a homosexual person, as they became more Christlike, would no longer have a homosexual orientation.


then why did God make me gay?

you are basically saying that homosexuality is an error, a mistake, a perversion of the "natural," and that if i were a better person, then i wouldn't have a homosexual orientation.

do you understand, firstly, how hurtful that is? that this is the basis of the self-loathing that consumes so many homosexuals that it drives them to suicide (especially when teenagers) in far greater numbers than their heteroseuxal peers? you're saying that no matter what you do, no matter how good you are, no matter how well you life your life, it really doesn't matter because you're still gay. or, worse, if you just try harder and maybe just pray harder and if you really put forth your best effort, then you wouldn't be gay.

and that's a lie. because as everyone in the "ex-gay" movement knows, and as all of the leaders of the movement who have "relapsed" or left the movement altogether and now denounce it, sexual orientation is unchangeable. we can condition ourselves into celibacy, we can condition ourselves into something akin to bisexuality, we can condition ourselves into a new cateogry of sexual orientation that they call "ex-gay," but we cannot take a gay man and make him straight no more than we can take a straight man and make him gay.
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Old 07-12-2006, 12:58 PM   #74
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Originally posted by Irvine511

then why did God make me gay?
I don’t have an answer. I believe in a fallen creation – so nothing is as should be, including me.

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

you are basically saying that homosexuality is an error, a mistake, a perversion of the "natural," and that if i were a better person, then i wouldn't have a homosexual orientation. ?
Again, because of the fallen creation, the entire natural order is groaning to be redeemed – which include both you and I.


Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


do you understand, firstly, how hurtful that is? that this is the basis of the self-loathing that consumes so many homosexuals that it drives them to suicide (especially when teenagers) in far greater numbers than their heteroseuxal peers?
I am sorry that this is hurtful. The fact that so many kill themselves is absolutely heartbreaking and makes me very upset. I certainly think that many Christians, including myself, have a difficult time understanding what you and other homosexuals are going through. You are doing quite a bit to help me with that.

However – as a Christian, I must trust that the Lord knew what He was talking about. All I can say is that if you are a homosexual Christian, keep centering on Christ and it all will work out – in His timing. That’s the promise from Philippians 1:6.


Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

you're saying that no matter what you do, no matter how good you are, no matter how well you life your life, it really doesn't matter because you're still gay. or, worse, if you just try harder and maybe just pray harder and if you really put forth your best effort, then you wouldn't be gay.
I am certainly not saying this. I do not discredit your entire person because you are gay. And if you were my friend, I would not focus on this issue unless you brought it up. I believe in a God that heals every wound and makes all things perfect – including us. I trust in this hope because God has worked miracles in my own heart. I am not asking you to pray and not be gay – I am asking you to focus on Christ, the rest will take care of itself (I am not referring to being gay, I am referring to EVERYTHING)

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


and that's a lie. because as everyone in the "ex-gay" movement knows, and as all of the leaders of the movement who have "relapsed" or left the movement altogether and now denounce it, sexual orientation is unchangeable. we can condition ourselves into celibacy, we can condition ourselves into something akin to bisexuality, we can condition ourselves into a new cateogry of sexual orientation that they call "ex-gay," but we cannot take a gay man and make him straight no more than we can take a straight man and make him gay.
I still don’t know enough about the science around this. My brief research seems to disagree with your statements here, but I am still willing to read the scientific arguments on both sides.

I really do not have a vested interest in either outcome. As I said before – all creation is out of whack and groaning for redemption.

Irvine, I really would like to thank you for your sincerity, honesty, and intelligence in these posts. You handle yourself well for such an emotional topic. You seem like a wonderful person and I am blessed to have had our paths cross. I am quite certain the people God has placed around you are also equally blessed.

Thank You
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Old 07-12-2006, 01:16 PM   #75
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Seriously the stretches some of you are coming up with to "prove" it's choice are ridiculous.
I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm only asking questions as I don't have a degree in Genetics, Psychology or Human Sexuality. That's what one does when one doesn't know the answer and one's in the company of those that may.
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