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Old 07-12-2006, 12:01 AM   #46
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Originally posted by Irvine511

please, show me the scientific evidence that says that people can change their sexual orientations.
I'm thought I was going to sit this one out but I do have to ask this. And I ask you because 1) I don't know the answer and 2) I enjoy conversing with you even if we don't agree.

Here's the question. What is the explanation for otherwise heterosexual men and women turning to homosexuality while in prison? What is the difference between homosexual behavior and orientation in 25 words or less?
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Old 07-12-2006, 12:15 AM   #47
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Here's the question. What is the explanation for otherwise heterosexual men and women turning to homosexuality while in prison?
Homosexuality in prison is more about power than it is sexuality.
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Old 07-12-2006, 12:34 AM   #48
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Homosexuality in prison is more about power than it is sexuality.
But you are conceding, that at least SOME forms of homosexual behavior is a choice - correct?

How are we then to differentiate when homosexual behavior is about power from when it is about sexuality?
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Old 07-12-2006, 12:42 AM   #49
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Homosexuality in prison is more about power than it is sexuality.
Yes, I'm sure you're right. We are talking about violent and dominating people. And prisons have their own hierarchy for sure. But isn't there also the sex of companionship in prison? When self- pleasure or abstinence isn't satisfactory. Think MIDNIGHT EXPRESS if you've seen that movie.
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Old 07-12-2006, 12:48 AM   #50
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Originally posted by Angela Harlem
Eloquent? You know where you can shove that, mate. This is far more important than politeness. The most giving I have heard agressive Christians get on this is to 'admit' civil unions could be acceptable, but not through the Church, as they're allowed. And you know, fuck that. And anyone who agrees.
Please tone down the rhetoric a bit, Angela. This kind of argument isn't likely to inspire anyone to be more self-critical, nor is it going to move the discussion (which is all any of this is) forward very much. Thanks.
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Old 07-12-2006, 12:52 AM   #51
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Originally posted by AEON


But you are conceding, that at least SOME forms of homosexual behavior is a choice - correct?

How are we then to differentiate when homosexual behavior is about power from when it is about sexuality?
Does it matter...

They aren't doing it to you correct?
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Old 07-12-2006, 12:57 AM   #52
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Originally posted by INDY500
But isn't there also the sex of companionship in prison? When self- pleasure or abstinence isn't satisfactory. Think MIDNIGHT EXPRESS if you've seen that movie.
Heterosexuality doesn't imply an absolute inability to "make do" with someone of the same sex, nor does homosexuality imply an inability to make do with someone of the opposite. Plenty of gay men and lesbians have had mutually unsatisfying, but nonetheless physically "functional" enough, heterosexual intimate relationships in their past. That doesn't mean in either case that the "sex of companionship" is the ideal or healthiest form of intimate relationship for those trying to get by with it.
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Old 07-12-2006, 01:03 AM   #53
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Uhh, could it be that the people in prison are so desperate for sex and some sort of companionship that they resort to whatever is available to them?

Actually engaging in sexual behavior is a choice (unless you're forced, obviously). The IMPULSE is not your choice. So...I'm not sure what the prison arguement has to do with proving homosexuality is a choice. Yes, it's your choice who you have sex with, but it's not your choice who you want to have sex with, or who you fall in love with. You can hardly compare someone who is in prison for years and longing for some form of a sexual relationship to someone who has been attracted to members of the same sex his or her entire life.
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Old 07-12-2006, 01:13 AM   #54
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Originally posted by Dreadsox


Does it matter...

They aren't doing it to you correct?
Well, this is actually another discussion, but I'll take the bait.

Everything we do has an effect not only on ourselves, but on others. We may not always see the connections; however, they certainly exist and almost always reveal themselves over time in some fashion or another.

The age old saying: "No Man Is an Island unto Himself" - is very true. That is why I believe that in their very essence, objective moral laws are NOT about denying pleasure, but about keeping us from hurting ourselves and each other.
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Old 07-12-2006, 01:45 AM   #55
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A fairly recent publication on the topic is in the American Psychological Association's June 2002 issue of Professional Psychology: Research and Practice. An article by Dr. Warren Throckmorton, "Initial Empirical and Clinical Findings Concerning the Change Process for Ex-Gays."

This article summarizes 11 studies and concludes: "My literature review contradicts the policies of major mental health organizations because it suggests that sexual orientation, once thought to be an unchanging sexual trait, is actually quite flexible for many people, changing as a result of therapy for some, ministry for others and spontaneously for still others."

“Clearly, to claim that there is "no evidence of successful sexual orientation change" is to be either grossly uninformed or in a state of denial. Reparative therapy has not been discredited. It has simply fallen out of favor since the 1973 vote by the board of the American Psychiatric Association to remove homosexuality from its official encyclopedia of mental disorders. The research hasn't been disproved; it has simply been disenfranchised by the political correctness of the times.”
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Old 07-12-2006, 02:12 AM   #56
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Just for the record, Throckmorton is a conservative Christian college psych prof specializing in sexual reorientation therapy, so his is not a disinterested perspective on the subject either.
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Old 07-12-2006, 02:43 AM   #57
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Originally posted by yolland
Just for the record, Throckmorton is a conservative Christian college psych prof specializing in sexual reorientation therapy, so his is not a disinterested perspective on the subject either.
Does that necessarily discredit the research that was published by the APA? Your statement is guilty of the ad hominem fallacy.
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Old 07-12-2006, 02:43 AM   #58
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Old 07-12-2006, 02:52 AM   #59
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.

I actually do not see how they are offensive, but you do assert that you are indeed offended - and for that I sincerely apologize. My goal is not to offend, but to simply propose to those that read and post here that there are Christians, biologist, psychologists, psychiatrists, historians, and scholars who have educated opinions regarding this topic that are different than the ones you are proposing.

There are many people torn apart internally over these questions. Yes, I am one of them because I do have what I consider truth in one hand, and in the other hand I have emotions that contradict that truth. However, if A is True, then A Cannot Be Not True at the same time. It is the Law of Non-Contradiction. We cannot even have an intelligent conversation if we cannot accept logic as ground rule. Regardless of what my emotions tell me, I have to accept what I consider true. Emotions can be very deceptive. They are especially good at clouding judgment and reason, especially when it comes to morality. When emotion reigns - we can find a justification for anything we want to do.

Again, I do apologize that you are offended. I hope that we can still have a rational dialogue over this issue.
Glad we can resort to a rational dialogue. It's a funny dynamic, these debates. We have one side saying "look at what this does to an entire section of the community" and others who say "look at what you're calling me, based on my beliefs!" Which kind of mirrors yolland here's comment on my comment. Peopole say this is a big difference between Americans and Australians, as an aside. We can talk generally like this and not bat an eye, but you lot are more reserved. Anyway. I dont mean to offend you, by saying Christianity is bigoted, and I'm sure there is a politer way to say "fuck that". Either way, these debates leave me at my wits end with patience. Your calling it a truth is interesting. At the start, when you got into all this religion caper, did it not raise a little flag to you? That love and acceptance has to mean for all equally? If you look at what Jesus (supposedly) lived to teach (all well and good, by the way), does that mesh with not allowing gay men and women into your church to be married before God? They're His children, too, right? I'm sure if there's a God, then He knows exactly what he's doing. I reckon if it were an absolute no-no, it'd be more clear than some vague mentionings of in a 2000+ year old book. The church itself is a huge institution built on a relatively small rulebook. I'm sure before Jesus and his buddies there was a lot people based their beliefs on. Now I'm sidetracking. I dont really give a squat for the history, to be honest.

I find it curious you dont see how this can be offensive? You're saying to a section of the community "I love you as I'm supposed to, but due to your sins, I can't allow you to live as freely as I do and you therefore either need to become hetero or just deal with it." You think that sits well? This is a trait that is unchangeable and not chosen. It cannot be chosen. I cannot name a single person who chose their sexuality. Do you? Honestly? Know anyone who did, I mean. It's saying to gay people that you cannot accept them as they are, that they have to change or be destined to live with a restricted lovelife. Do you really think Jesus and a fair and just God see it the same way? I cannot see it. This is logic. Surely.
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Old 07-12-2006, 08:12 AM   #60
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I'm sorry. "Ex-gays" are a pseudoscience. AEON, I don't know why you're busy trying to defend a blatant fallacy. Do you remember when you described how embarrassing it was for Christians to do expeditions to find Noah's Ark? This is on similar footing, if you ask me.

This has absolutely no bearing on actual science, and, like the ID pseudoscience, it's about propping up original religious ideas with specious "evidence." The "ex-gay" movement is a mixture of religion with pseudoscience with semantics. Their idea of "success"--which is only 30%, according to them--is to convince a gay person to live celibately or to convince a bisexual to be with a woman. No one else would rationally define this as "conversion."

It's actions like these that discredit Christians in the eyes of anyone left of Jerry Falwell.

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