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Old 07-11-2006, 05:37 PM   #31
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Originally posted by Irvine511



question for you: what if you were gay? what if one of your children is gay? how would this affect your moral/spiritual convictions?
Ultimately, it is impossible for me to answer. I would hope that regardless of any circumstance I find myself in – that I would still seek a close relationship with Christ; and that as I grew closer to Him the answer of what He wants (as opposed to what I want) would become obvious.
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Old 07-11-2006, 05:39 PM   #32
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I would be happiest with a wonderful, heterosexual marriage for both of my kids. I do no think I am being extreme to hope for such a thing.

Of course I want my children to be happy instead of unhappy. But I think we may disagree with what genuine happiness is. I usually think of it as joy, and IMHO - deep internal joy can only be experienced while a soul is in communion with God (that is, doing God's will).
This truly saddens me.

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Because I am not a homosexual, I can only base my opinions on what I read and observe. Actually, I think this makes me more objective on this issue.

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Old 07-11-2006, 05:57 PM   #33
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Originally posted by AEON


I would be happiest with a wonderful, heterosexual marriage for both of my kids. I do no think I am being extreme to hope for such a thing.


not at all -- i think this is what most parents want, but i also think that most parents want their child to be happy and authentic first, and then the happy marriage (gay or straight) will then follow.


[q]Of course I want my children to be happy instead of unhappy. But I think we may disagree with what genuine happiness is. I usually think of it as joy, and IMHO - deep internal joy can only be experienced while a soul is in communion with God (that is, doing God's will).[/q]

do you see this as incompatible with being gay?


Quote:
She was still my aunt, she was still cool, and she still had a great sense of humor. After a few years, she came to Christ and left the woman. Now she lives with her sister and seems to be very happy.
i am happy that your aunt is happy, and was able to escape an abusive relationship, but did Christ make her leave the woman?

that doesn't seem very Christian to me -- can you imagine Jesus saying, "it's either me, or this woman you love."
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Old 07-11-2006, 07:37 PM   #34
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I hope that the scientific discussion could continue in an open manner. There seem to be a number of theories, covering a span of influences or possible “causes” available for discussion.

The genetic component is interesting, but presents a logical challenge. It would seem to be a reasonable assumption to say that those with a homosexual gene would reproduce at a lower rate than those without a homosexual gene. Just by the sheer passage of time over the generations, this factor alone should show a substantial decrease in homosexuality if it is to be based on genetic factors alone.

The biological component from the recent study is also interesting; though I’m not sure anyone has really tested the study and its conclusions. As a couple has more children, it appears that the chance of having a son who is homosexual increases (though the study does not state how they identify a son as homosexual – nor how you measure sexual orientation other than self selection). On this basis, a survey of large families or groups that tend to have larger families would have far higher incidents of having sons who are homosexuals. For example, you should see far higher occurrences of homosexuality among groups in South America, Africa, India or the Pacific Rim (larger families/increasing population) and lower incidents in areas of Europe (where there are smaller families/decreasing population). I am sure there are other ways to identify groups that tend to have larger families.

The areas spoken of here the least include environmental factors and behavior choice. We know there are people who identify themselves as bi-sexual. It would seem in these incidents that choice is the overriding factor. Bisexuality covers a wide range from the incidental to near exclusive same sex relations. I think we understate the broad notion of choice or our ability to control our own actions.

Bottom line – should any of this really matter in our response? There are political and legal implications if the arguments are taken to conclusion, but we need not get there to define our own individual interpersonal behavior.
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Old 07-11-2006, 08:03 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


not at all -- i think this is what most parents want, but i also think that most parents want their child to be happy and authentic first, and then the happy marriage (gay or straight) will then follow.


[q]Of course I want my children to be happy instead of unhappy. But I think we may disagree with what genuine happiness is. I usually think of it as joy, and IMHO - deep internal joy can only be experienced while a soul is in communion with God (that is, doing God's will).[/q]

do you see this as incompatible with being gay?
I already shared my interpretation of the Bible’s stance on homosexuality fairly extensively. Basically, here is where we must “agree to disagree.” Do I believe you can be a homosexual and be a Christian? Absolutely yes! Being a Christian only requires genuine faith in Jesus Christ. Do I believe that homosexuals are in step with God’s will regarding sexual behavior – I personally do not think so. However, it is not my place to actually condemn anybody. So, my advice to any homosexual Christian would be to focus on Christ and do your best to submit to the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Wherever that leads – it leads.

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Originally posted by Irvine511

i am happy that your aunt is happy, and was able to escape an abusive relationship, but did Christ make her leave the woman?

that doesn't seem very Christian to me -- can you imagine Jesus saying, "it's either me, or this woman you love."
I wouldn’t say that Christ made her leave the woman. I think she probably left her for several reasons, including the fact she probably needed time to be “relationship free.” However, Christ does ask us to put Him first, and we should be willing to set aside ANY of our own wants and desires (whatever they may be) in order to do His will.
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Old 07-11-2006, 08:30 PM   #36
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Originally posted by AEON

However, Christ does ask us to put Him first, and we should be willing to aside ANY of our own wants and desires (whatever they may be) in order to do His will.
While debate is good, and debate is great, this quote is exactly why these debates will never be settled or resolved. Christians, Muslims and all other religious groups that condemn homosexuality will ALWAYS fall back on their faith, their God and the teachings of said god as justification for their views in asking homosexuals to deny their sexuality. In my experience I haven't ever seen it be any other way.

So all I can speak from, and the only evidence I could ever bring is what I know from my own day to day life, and what I've known stemming from when I was 5 years old and only growing stronger and more assured as I grew older, and that is: sexual physiological, chemical, and emotional responses happen to me in relation to men only, and never to women. Whether it's genetic, environmental, sub-conscious, I don't know and I don't care. It's moot. To me my sexual orientation is as much a part of me as breathing, getting thirsty, sweating, feeling jubilant or sad, yawning, itching, etc.

I don't question it. I only question those who attack me and ask me to deny and give up something that is so instinctual and ingrained in myself, that if not for that part of me, I would not be me.

And if some don't like me, then they don't have to know me or have me in their life. I'm not hurting them, I'm not insulting them, I'm not attacking them. I'm just trying to live my life as best and happy as I can.
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Old 07-11-2006, 08:36 PM   #37
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Originally posted by AEON


Eloquent response.

I really do not believe that everyone who opposes gay marriage is necessarily "homophobic." The word is really becoming meaningless by its overuse. (not because it is losing importance, but because it is losing "meaning")

While I was not the author of the article and do not agree with it entirely - I thought several reasonable points were made.
Eloquent? You know where you can shove that, mate. This is far more important than politeness. The most giving I have heard agressive Christians get on this is to 'admit' civil unions could be acceptable, but not through the Church, as they're allowed. And you know, fuck that. And anyone who agrees. If the bible had mumbled about 2 other individuals not being allowed to marry, it would be bigotry in race. This is bigotry in sexuality. If church types cannot see that, then pity the fools. It is a major ugly aspect of the church which keep many from following.
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Old 07-11-2006, 08:43 PM   #38
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And yet, the irony is that the only place a gay couple could get married is in the religious sense, rather than the legal sense.

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Old 07-11-2006, 08:49 PM   #39
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Originally posted by Angela Harlem

And you know, fuck that. And anyone who agrees.
It is rather difficult to understand your actual point of view. This is a classic bully tactic to try and intimidate people into accepting that they must be an intolerant, hateful, bigoted, racist, homophobe for disagreeing with you. I assure you - I am none of those things.

Is there no room for opposing views here? Must we all blindly agree with you so that we can avoid this sort of blasting? I sure hope not.

You are passionate about your views, I can appreciate that. But I think we could all agree that very little can be accomplished through insults.
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Old 07-11-2006, 09:01 PM   #40
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All I can say is.....

If a few miles did not keep us apart Angie....I would kiss your Outback Special!

HEHEE
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Old 07-11-2006, 09:02 PM   #41
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Originally posted by FitzChivalry



So all I can speak from, and the only evidence I could ever bring is what I know from my own day to day life, and what I've known stemming from when I was 5 years old and only growing stronger and more assured as I grew older, and that is: sexual physiological, chemical, and emotional responses happen to me in relation to men only, and never to women. Whether it's genetic, environmental, sub-conscious, I don't know and I don't care. It's moot. To me my sexual orientation is as much a part of me as breathing, getting thirsty, sweating, feeling jubilant or sad, yawning, itching, etc.
Thanks for sharing this. It really helps me understand your point of view.
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Old 07-11-2006, 09:02 PM   #42
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But I think we could all agree that very little can be accomplished through insults.
You do not feel you have been insulting?

Maybe the slave master was more objective about slavery too....
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Old 07-11-2006, 09:28 PM   #43
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[Q]The second majority opinion, written by Judge Victoria A. Graffeo, a Pataki appointee, upheld the Smith opinion but seemed to distance itself from its sociological arguments that the purpose of the marriage law was to promote families with children.

"Marriage can and does serve individual interests that extend well beyond creating an environment conducive to procreation and child-rearing," Judge Graffeo said, in a 22-page concurrence.

She exhorted the Legislature to take up the issue, saying, "It may well be that the time has come for the Legislature to address the needs of same-sex couples and their families, and to consider granting these individuals additional benefits through marriage or whatever status the Legislature deems appropriate."[/Q]

Of the parts I read...I thought this made the most sense....

But damn...they are not very decisive if this is th majority opinion.
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Old 07-11-2006, 09:55 PM   #44
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It is rather difficult to understand your actual point of view. This is a classic bully tactic to try and intimidate people into accepting that they must be an intolerant, hateful, bigoted, racist, homophobe for disagreeing with you. I assure you - I am none of those things.

Is there no room for opposing views here? Must we all blindly agree with you so that we can avoid this sort of blasting? I sure hope not.

You are passionate about your views, I can appreciate that. But I think we could all agree that very little can be accomplished through insults.

What's difficult to understand? My actual point of view is plain and simply what is good for the goose is good for the gander. If you are worthy of marriage and blessings, then so should everyone. This denial of a basic right enjoyed by the majority IS inequality. It IS bigotry. It is denial of something based on one element. Christians stumble continually over their own tangled web, here. It is denied because God wishes it as it was stated through the bible, yet then in the next breath a Christian will cry it is improper (and impossible) to know God' will. If you lot cannot make up your own minds on what word of God you can and cannot interpret, then be it on yours. Your views ARE offensive, do you know that? Every gay and lesbian is on the outside looking in because of a doctrine of your church. Does that mkae you feel you are following in the hallowed steps of Christ? Does it make you feel giving and welcoming and accepting of EVERYONE? Stop questioning me, mate. I believe in equality for ALL in every sense of the word. Start questioning yourself and your church.
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Old 07-11-2006, 11:04 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem

Your views ARE offensive, do you know that?
.

I actually do not see how they are offensive, but you do assert that you are indeed offended - and for that I sincerely apologize. My goal is not to offend, but to simply propose to those that read and post here that there are Christians, biologist, psychologists, psychiatrists, historians, and scholars who have educated opinions regarding this topic that are different than the ones you are proposing.

There are many people torn apart internally over these questions. Yes, I am one of them because I do have what I consider truth in one hand, and in the other hand I have emotions that contradict that truth. However, if A is True, then A Cannot Be Not True at the same time. It is the Law of Non-Contradiction. We cannot even have an intelligent conversation if we cannot accept logic as ground rule. Regardless of what my emotions tell me, I have to accept what I consider true. Emotions can be very deceptive. They are especially good at clouding judgment and reason, especially when it comes to morality. When emotion reigns - we can find a justification for anything we want to do.

Again, I do apologize that you are offended. I hope that we can still have a rational dialogue over this issue.
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