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Old 07-13-2006, 05:51 PM   #166
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
AEON, you also understand that marriage in Biblical times, "traditional"marriage, was one middle-aged man and many women? that Mary was probably 13 when she had Jesus? that in the 1960s we had very "traditional" marriages between one man and one woman that would be illegal today because the woman in question was 13 or 14 (think Jerry Lee Lewis and Loretta Lynn)?
The New Testament doesn't define the age we should marry - only the nature of the roles between the husband and wife (Ephesians 5). Jesus himself makes it clear in passages already posted that marriage is between man and a woman. He doesn't specify age.

I understand traditions change. There is a lot room for error and adjustment when it comes to traditions. But the Bible makes it clear that marriage, at its core - is more than a tradition. It is a divine union between a man and a woman, and a very beautiful thing.

Now we can rename marriage into spaghetti and hand out licenses all day calling it spaghetti - but it doesn't change the fact that this divine union that God designed is between a man and a woman. The best that can be done is to try and imitate it, but it will never be the marriage that God describes.
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Old 07-13-2006, 05:57 PM   #167
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Nice post Yolland. Thankfully for us the NT takes it a step further, and perhaps brings the ideal marriage into focus:

Relationships (Ephesians 5:21-33 - The Message)


Out of respect for Christ, be courteously reverent to one another.

Wives, understand and support your husbands in ways that show your support for Christ. The husband provides leadership to his wife the way Christ does to his church, not by domineering but by cherishing. So just as the church submits to Christ as he exercises such leadership, wives should likewise submit to their husbands.

Husbands, go all out in your love for your wives, exactly as Christ did for the church—a love marked by giving, not getting. Christ's love makes the church whole. His words evoke her beauty. Everything he does and says is designed to bring the best out of her, dressing her in dazzling white silk, radiant with holiness. And that is how husbands ought to love their wives. They're really doing themselves a favor—since they're already "one" in marriage.

No one abuses his own body, does he? No, he feeds and pampers it. That's how Christ treats us, the church, since we are part of his body. And this is why a man leaves father and mother and cherishes his wife. No longer two, they become "one flesh." This is a huge mystery, and I don't pretend to understand it all. What is clearest to me is the way Christ treats the church. And this provides a good picture of how each husband is to treat his wife, loving himself in loving her, and how each wife is to honor her husband.
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Old 07-13-2006, 06:27 PM   #168
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON
So just as the church submits to Christ as he exercises such leadership, wives should likewise submit to their husbands.


how do you think most women would feel about this part? how does your wife feel about this part? does this not strike you as antiquated -- that you can get the overall message implied without adhering to the precise words?
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Old 07-13-2006, 06:33 PM   #169
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


But the Bible makes it clear that marriage, at its core - is more than a tradition. It is a divine union between a man and a woman, and a very beautiful thing.
Do you know what else the Bible says about Marriage? Paul says it is good not to marry, BUT if you must do so...

That puts an interesting spin on your procreation reasoning doesn't it? If all took Paul's advice we wouldn't be here.

It also says that only a man can divorce his wife, his wife cannot divorce him.


But let me ask you this AEON, is it at all possible that the reason it says man and women is that in this day and age there were no open homosexual relationships? Is it at all possible that Jesus spoke to people in their terms, what they could understand. Such as when Jesus refered to Noah he told them it wasn't really the whole Earth, it was just a small part and it really wasn't EVERY animal just a few... They would have stoned him, they wouldn't have been able to wrap their minds around it.

There were a lot of things going on during the times of Jesus that he didn't talk about but we can all assume he didn't like, but he never specifically talked about. Yet he used parables like 'judge not lest ye be judged' and others to take care of these concerns. There was slavery, oppressed women, racism, all kinds of things. But he never addressed these things specifically because there were things 'because of tradition' that people wouldn't be able to wrap their minds around, so he gave them his teachings hoping they will someday come around.
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Old 07-13-2006, 06:45 PM   #170
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




how do you think most women would feel about this part? how does your wife feel about this part? does this not strike you as antiquated -- that you can get the overall message implied without adhering to the precise words?
I think wife totally agrees with it, because it is dependent on my doing my part.

Also - everyone is supposed to be willing to submit to each other anyway. The passage says I am supposed to love my wife as Christ loved the church. How did Christ express that love? Be serving them and giving himself up for them.

Many Christians misunderstand this passage and use to dominate their wives. Even though it says it right there in the very passage that husbands should NOT be domineering, but cherishing.

If I tried to use this passage to dominate my wife – she would wallop me and then re-read the FULL passage to me.
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Old 07-13-2006, 06:47 PM   #171
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


I think wife totally agrees with it, because it is dependent on my doing my part.

Also - everyone is supposed to be willing to submit to each other anyway. The passage says I am supposed to love my wife as Christ loved the church. How did Christ express that love? Be serving them and giving himself up for them.

Many Christian misunderstand this passage and use to dominate their wives. Even though it says it right there in the very passage that husbands should NOT be domineering, but cherishing.

If I tried to use this passage to dominate my wife – she would wallop me and the re-read the FULL passage to me.


so you're essentially doing what i said -- you're taking the spirit of the message and not adhering to the actual words. it says "submit" but you're putting it into context, trying to understand the meaning of the passage rather than the meaning of the individual words, and then applying them into a very practical, lived-in context.
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Old 07-13-2006, 06:58 PM   #172
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON
The New Testament doesn't define the age we should marry - only the nature of the roles between the husband and wife (Ephesians 5). Jesus himself makes it clear in passages already posted that marriage is between man and a woman. He doesn't specify age.
This strikes me as taking advantage of the Gospels' lack of explicit reference to what would most likely have been taken for granted. (As could be done by opponents of capital punishment, for example.) Jesus was a Jew, and the standard age of marriage (see my previous post) was not raised until the Talmudic compilation era, several centuries later. Similarly, why would he have presumed his audience to require explicit direction that marriage only be between a man and a woman, as you seem to be suggesting said passages show? Jewish law would not have recognized any other type anyway.
Quote:
Originally posted by AEON
Thankfully for us the NT takes it a step further, and perhaps brings the ideal marriage into focus:............
Nice words for sure, and I could site dozens of similar discussions preserved in the the Talmud enumerating the various ways husbands should show compassion for their "woman of valor whose price is above rubies," and vice versa for the wife, etc. etc. However, this does nothing to change the fact that said husband and wife had no choice in the matter, and that these various acts of compassion were meant to facilitate and nurture feelings that did not exist at all at the time of marriage--not to build upon what was presumed to already exist. But again, doesn't it just feel so right to stand in the here and now, reading those passages from the vantage point of the freedom of choice we straight married folks enjoy today and thinking, "Yup. That's how we want our marriage to be, all right, and I chose exactly the right person to live this out with." Nope. Our self-indulgent "right person" nonsense wasn't part of what they envisioned at all.
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Old 07-13-2006, 07:03 PM   #173
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




so you're essentially doing what i said -- you're taking the spirit of the message and not adhering to the actual words. it says "submit" but you're putting it into context, trying to understand the meaning of the passage rather than the meaning of the individual words, and then applying them into a very practical, lived-in context.
Sort of - 1 Peter 5 tells us that each of us are to submit to one another. So it is the "actual words" and the "spirit" of the passages are equally true.

This means that yes, my wife submits to me. But at the same time - I submit to her. Both of us are called to always have an attitude of serving one another.
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Old 07-13-2006, 07:07 PM   #174
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland


But again, doesn't it just feel so right to stand in the here and now, reading those passages from the vantage point of the freedom of choice we straight married folks enjoy today and thinking, "Yup. That's how we want our marriage to be, all right, and I chose exactly the right person to live this out with." Nope. Our self-indulgent "right person" nonsense wasn't part of what they envisioned at all.
Yeah - I suppose I have to concede this point.

It seems to me that perhaps how marriages are brought together is not as important as how the two should treat each other once they are brought together. But I am reading into it.
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Old 07-13-2006, 07:16 PM   #175
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[Q][TEVYE]
Tradition, tradition! Tradition!
Tradition, tradition! Tradition!

[TEVYE & PAPAS]
Who, day and night, must scramble for a living,
Feed a wife and children, say his daily prayers?
And who has the right, as master of the house,
To have the final word at home?

The Papa, the Papa! Tradition.
The Papa, the Papa! Tradition.

[GOLDE & MAMAS]
Who must know the way to make a proper home,
A quiet home, a kosher home?
Who must raise the family and run the home,
So Papa's free to read the holy books?

The Mama, the Mama! Tradition!
The Mama, the Mama! Tradition!

[SONS]
At three, I started Hebrew school. At ten, I learned a trade.
I hear they've picked a bride for me. I hope she's pretty.

The son, the son! Tradition!
The son, the son! Tradition!

[DAUGHTERS]
And who does Mama teach to mend and tend and fix,
Preparing me to marry whoever Papa picks?

The daughter, the daughter! Tradition!
The daughter, the daughter! Tradition!

[MATCHMAKER]
Matchmaker, matchmaker, make me a match.
Find me a find, catch me a catch.
Matchmaker, matchmaker, look through your book
And make me a perfect match.

Matchmaker, matchmaker, I'll bring the veil.
You bring the groom, slender and pale.
Bring me a ring, for I'm longing to be
The envy of all I see.

For Papa, make him a scholar.
For Mama, make him rich as a king.
For me, well, I wouldn't holler
If her were as handsome as anything.

Matchmaker, matchmaker, make me a match.
Find me a find, catch me a catch.
Night after night, in the dark, I'm alone.
So, find me a match of my own.

[TSEITEL]
Hodel, oh Hodel, have I made a match for you.
He's handsome! He's young! All right, he's 62.
But he's a nice man, a good catch. True? True!
I promise you'll be happy. And even if you're not,
There's more to life than that. Don't ask me what!

Chava! I've found him! Will you be a lucky bride!
He's handsome. He's tall! That is, from side to side.
But he's a nice man, a good catch, Right? Right!
You've heard he has a temper. He'll beat you every night.
But only when he's sober- so you're all right!

Did you think you'd get a prince?
Well I do the best I can.
With no dowry, no money, no family background,
Be glad you got a man!

Matchmaker, matchmaker, you know that I'm
Still very young. Please, take your time.
Up to this minute, I've misunderstood
That I could get stuck for good.

Dear Yenta, see that he's gentle.
Remember, you were also a bride.
It's not that I'm sentimental.
It's just that I'm terrified!

Matchmaker, matchmaker, plan me no plans.
I'm in no rush. maybe I've learned
Playing with matches a girl can get burned.
So bring me no ring, groom me no groom,
Find me no find, catch me no catch.
Unless he's a matchless match![/Q]

Sanctity of Marriage!!!! Sanctity of Marriage!

Marriage HAS not changed!!!!!!!

Mwwwaaaahhhhhaaaaa
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Old 07-13-2006, 07:21 PM   #176
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland

Similarly, why would he have presumed his audience to require explicit direction that marriage only be between a man and a woman, as you seem to be suggesting said passages show? Jewish law would not have recognized any other type anyway.

Excellent post. What I was trying to say earlier but worded much more eloquently...
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Old 07-13-2006, 07:22 PM   #177
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Excellent post. What I was trying to say earlier but worded much more eloquently...
I second that....

But now I am thinking of reworking a new version of Fiddler on The Roof...

Where TEVYE has three sons..... Hehe and one is Gay....How could we rework the song...
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Old 07-13-2006, 08:00 PM   #178
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I'm thinking it's time for a Second Reformation. I'm quite disappointed in the results of the first.

Melon
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Old 07-13-2006, 08:07 PM   #179
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Originally posted by Dreadsox


I disagree...the churches views on marriage has changed considerably.

Divorce
Women as Property
Women Cannot own property.
Interracial marriages

Shall we go back to this wisdom, tradition, and time tested interpretation as well?

[Q]So, I trust the Lord on these issues, not the prevailing cultural wind.[/Q]

Prevailing wind....

Let's talk divorce...Shall we go back in time?
Ah, one day I will take you and my favourite FYMer (Mrs Dread) out for a beer.
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Old 07-13-2006, 08:18 PM   #180
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Originally posted by Angela Harlem


Ah, one day I will take you and my favourite FYMer (Mrs Dread) out for a beer.
Maybe I can get you both drunk and...hehe....

Ummmm....Never mind...
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