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Old 07-13-2006, 02:37 PM   #151
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


We'd still think the Earth is flat,
Actually, very few people actuallly thought this. It is simply part of the Columbus legend, or mythos. The Four Corners of the Earth was simply considered a figure of speech.
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Old 07-13-2006, 02:39 PM   #152
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Originally posted by INDY500

I don't see this as a conservative vs liberal debate in the church as much as one between contemporary and traditional believes. Should accumulated wisdom, tradition, time-tested interpretations and ultimately Biblical judgement itself be shoved aside so as to make room for modern relativism? An ethos which at it's core says truth comes from inside, not outside ourselves, that all experiences and expressions are equally valid--all life choices equally conventional.

Has any major church leader, Christian thinker, prophet or teacher argued in favor of same-sex marriage prior to this generation?

Same-sex marriage as a political/social issue decided democratically in a free society is one thing, let the best man win. But to "do what is right in our own eyes" is not an option for believing Christians. My eyes included.

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Old 07-13-2006, 02:52 PM   #153
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You nod your head because without this type of thinking you could never justify your views, but the truth is society and the church would be in a world of hurt if this type of thinking had been held throughout history.
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Old 07-13-2006, 02:59 PM   #154
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tell me again about how the sun revolves around the earth?
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Old 07-13-2006, 03:00 PM   #155
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Originally posted by AEON

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


We'd still think the Earth is flat,
Actually, very few people actuallly thought this. It is simply part of the Columbus legend, or mythos. The Four Corners of the Earth was simply considered a figure of speech.

Actually, very few people actuallly thought this. It is simply part of the Columbus legend, or mythos. The Four Corners of the Earth was simply considered a figure of speech.
Disputing it could still give you a leading role at a rather large and not very festive barbeque.
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Old 07-13-2006, 03:08 PM   #156
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


You nod your head because without this type of thinking you could never justify your views, but the truth is society and the church would be in a world of hurt if this type of thinking had been held throughout history.
Actually, some Christians feel the church, as a whole, is in a world of hurt. And many of those same people feel that trying to reflect the values of the "world" is central to the problem.


Place Your Life Before God

So here's what I want you to do, God helping you: Take your everyday, ordinary life—your sleeping, eating, going-to-work, and walking-around life—and place it before God as an offering. Embracing what God does for you is the best thing you can do for him. Don't become so well-adjusted to your culture that you fit into it without even thinking. Instead, fix your attention on God. You'll be changed from the inside out. Readily recognize what he wants from you, and quickly respond to it. Unlike the culture around you, always dragging you down to its level of immaturity, God brings the best out of you, develops well-formed maturity in you. (Romans 12:1-2 – The Message)

So, I trust the Lord on these issues, not the prevailing cultural wind.

You know, if I didn't know any better BVS - it seems you actually have hatred toward those whom you disagree with on this issue. I mean real hatred.

I know my views on this subject are not the majority in these parts (in other parts they are indeed the overwhelming majority – but I don’t learn as much), but I still enjoy the back and forth of these discussions. Believe or not, I have learned a thing or two here. But by golly - you rev up pretty hard and fast.
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Old 07-13-2006, 03:13 PM   #157
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500

I don't see this as a conservative vs liberal debate in the church as much as one between contemporary and traditional believes. Should accumulated wisdom, tradition, time-tested interpretations and ultimately Biblical judgement itself be shoved aside so as to make room for modern relativism?
Reformation, anyone?
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Old 07-13-2006, 03:23 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500

I don't see this as a conservative vs liberal debate in the church as much as one between contemporary and traditional believes. Should accumulated wisdom, tradition, time-tested interpretations and ultimately Biblical judgement itself be shoved aside so as to make room for modern relativism?
I disagree...the churches views on marriage has changed considerably.

Divorce
Women as Property
Women Cannot own property.
Interracial marriages

Shall we go back to this wisdom, tradition, and time tested interpretation as well?

[Q]So, I trust the Lord on these issues, not the prevailing cultural wind.[/Q]

Prevailing wind....

Let's talk divorce...Shall we go back in time?
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Old 07-13-2006, 03:24 PM   #159
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Originally posted by Irvine511




tell me again about how the sun revolves around the earth?
So let me understand, because some misinterpreted the Bible in the past - EVERYTHING is now a misinterpretation? Or is it only in regards to homosexuality? Is it also murder? Gambling? Lying? Love thy neighbor?

Mistakes of interpretation have been made in the past. It means that people were wrong, not the Bible. Could I possibly be wrong about this issue? Of course. However, based on the interpretations of the original language that I’ve studied - from BOTH perspectives of the argument, the “conservative” interpretation seems cut and dry to me. Maybe to you it isn’t.

We can agree to disagree…
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Old 07-13-2006, 03:27 PM   #160
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Originally posted by AEON


Actually, some Christians feel the church, as a whole, is in a world of hurt. And many of those same people feel that trying to reflect the values of the "world" is central to the problem.

So, I trust the Lord on these issues, not the prevailing cultural wind.

These same people are the folks that said mixing races, giving women equal rights, ending slavery etc were reflecting the world values rather than God's.

They trusted the Lord on those issues as well, in fact "they had" a lot of scripture to back their beliefs.

So I really find that to be a cop out.




Quote:
Originally posted by AEON

You know, if I didn't know any better BVS - it seems you actually have hatred toward those whom you disagree with on this issue. I mean real hatred.

I know my views on this subject are not the majority in these parts (in other parts they are indeed the overwhelming majority – but I don’t learn as much), but I still enjoy the back and forth of these discussions. Believe or not, I have learned a thing or two here. But by golly - you rev up pretty hard and fast.
Oh this is quite comical coming from you. If you can show me anywhere where I've displayed hate, I would love to see it. Honestly, I haven't told anyone in here they are sinners or a downfall to society.

You mistaken passion for hate my friend. You might want to be careful about being so quick to judge, especially if you're going to be a pastor.
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Old 07-13-2006, 03:27 PM   #161
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Originally posted by AEON


So let me understand, because some misinterpreted the Bible in the past - EVERYTHING is now a misinterpretation? Or is it only in regards to homosexuality? Is it also murder? Gambling? Lying? Love thy neighbor?
Well, if you view homosexuality as a choice like,,,,,

gambling, murder, lying....

Then no...it is not misinterpreted....

But if you see beyod it being equal to those things....lack of choice, something when the good book was written was not even a concept..Then

YES...100%
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Old 07-13-2006, 03:33 PM   #162
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You mistaken passion for hate my friend.
Fair enough.
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Old 07-13-2006, 03:53 PM   #163
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AEON, you also understand that marriage in Biblical times, "traditional"marriage, was one middle-aged man and many women? that Mary was probably 13 when she had Jesus? that in the 1960s we had very "traditional" marriages between one man and one woman that would be illegal today because the woman in question was 13 or 14 (think Jerry Lee Lewis and Loretta Lynn)?
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Old 07-13-2006, 04:29 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500
I don't see this as a conservative vs liberal debate in the church as much as one between contemporary and traditional believes. Should accumulated wisdom, tradition, time-tested interpretations and ultimately Biblical judgement itself be shoved aside so as to make room for modern relativism?
Indy, a civil marriage is a contract, an economic agreement. Biblical judgement may mean all the world to someone personally, and that should be respected. But it has very little standing in a court of law.

No church needs to endorse *any* marriage, nor should they if that is their belief. The Catholic faith doesn't endorse divorce either... but those still happen too.
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Old 07-13-2006, 05:44 PM   #165
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
AEON, you also understand that marriage in Biblical times, "traditional"marriage, was one middle-aged man and many women? that Mary was probably 13 when she had Jesus?
I also think this is relevant, and have made the same point before. Marriage as the authors of (e.g.) Leviticus understood it was a contractual relationship usually entered into at Bar/Bat Mitzvah age (13/12, respectively) to a spouse of one's parents' choosing, with the expectation that work on producing and raising a family would begin immediately. (Polygamy was actually *not* as common as you suggest; however, it is true that a married man generally had the freedom to contract for subsequent wives himself--though this freedom did not, of course, apply to said women.) Romantic love, mutual personal fulfillment, and certainly any idea of who the prospective bride or groom would rather be intimate with were quite beside the question. This is not to say that something in some ways resembling our notion of romantic love did not exist; pretty clearly, it did (e.g. lucky Jacob and Rebekah, though who knows whether she also "loved" him after that one brief encounter)--but, as a hoped-for "bonus" that might develop with time and shared hardship, not as anyone's right to expect, let alone demand, of their parents as a precondition for marriage. Such a demand, as well as any other demand whose fulfillment might thwart the goals of marriage as conventionally understood (be fruitful and faithful, in the spirit of submission to the will of your parents and the greater good of Israel and its laws), would have been seen as at best laughably audacious, and at worst dangerously impious (how dare you put what pleases your own desires before your obligations to our customs?).

Happily for heterosexuals though, we've managed the trick of grafting a wholly foreign set of sensibilities about love, personal fulfillment, and individual autonomy onto this matrix which was never intended to accomodate it. And...3000 years and thousands of miles away from all that grim nose-to-grindstone stuff...doesn't it just feel oh, so right?
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