insecure men more likely to support Iraq War

[BVS]

I think it might be interesting to hear how men define masculinity

It would be an interesting thread. I've never given it much thought. I've been labeled all over the scale of masculine/ feminine and really haven't cared either way.

 

[Irvine511]

masculinity is a *very* intersting subject ... i've got many thoughts on the subject, and even took a course called "Masculinity: History and Theory," which was fascinating.

would love to hear what FYM thinks is masculine and what we mean when we say "masculinity" and whether or not it is necessarily linked to gender, or even to sex (not the act).

i'd posit that masculinity is just about the most sexually and sensually appealing thing i can think of. i think society celebrates and fetishizes feminine sexuality (or cartoonish approximations of the male gaze's view of feminine sexuality). but i do think it's true that things that are generally coded as sexual are feminine -- lace, satin, roses, chocolate, lingere, perfume, red and pink and white, blond hair, big boobies, etc. hence, the heterosexualy view. i'd argue that there are many equally powerful signs and signifiers of masculine sexuality -- would love to hear what straight girls think, for them to try to remove themselves from the oppressive Playboy view of sexuality and to write about those specifically masculine things (and i don't mean body parts ... i mean feelings, emotions, visions, smells, etc.)

 

[financeguy]

Did anyone see that Southpark episodes where they all turned 'metrosexual'? Hilarious.

 

[Irvine511]

Did anyone see that Southpark episodes where they all turned 'metrosexual'? Hilarious.

i'd call metrosexuality the feminization of masculinity.

it's actually little to do with homosexuality. it's more what heterosexuality imagines homosexuality to be, and then tries to sell that to men by telling them that women want them to be more "gay" -- or more like David Beckham.

all very silly, if you ask me.

but then again ... i do use special cleanser (*not* soap) and toner and moisturizer every night.

 

[financeguy]

all very silly, if you ask me.

Yes and with their usual sledgehammer wit they made that point quite clear in the episode!

 

[Irvine511]

Yes and with their usual sledgehammer wit they made that point quite clear in the episode!

aren't they wonderful?

the J-Lo episode ("fulfill my wishes with taco-flavored kisses") was one of the finest pieces of television ever.

 

[financeguy]

aren't they wonderful?

the J-Lo episode ("fulfill my wishes with taco-flavored kisses") was one of the finest pieces of television ever.

Missed that one but they did an episode with 'Paris Hilton' that showed her puking constantly from all the alcohol she had consumed the night before. They certainly know how to push the boat out!

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

the J-Lo episode ("fulfill my wishes with taco-flavored kisses") was one of the finest pieces of television ever.

That was freakin' hilarious. Twisted as hell, but hilarious.

Angela

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

masculinity is a *very* intersting subject ... i've got many thoughts on the subject, and even took a course called "Masculinity: History and Theory," which was fascinating.

would love to hear what FYM thinks is masculine (not the act).

So start the thread please

I think masculinity as it's usually been defined conjures up negative stereotypes for me. I guess what I find truly masculine is the opposite of the stereotype. I'm talking mostly about feelings, sensitivity, gentleness - that sort of thing.

 

[Irvine511]

^ agreed. i think gentleness -- especially when you know you can be strong, the putting aside of strength for tenderness -- is a very masculine trait.

what else?

(or maybe i should start a new thread ...)

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

I think masculinity as it's usually been defined conjures up negative stereotypes for me. I guess what I find truly masculine is the opposite of the stereotype. I'm talking mostly about feelings, sensitivity, gentleness - that sort of thing.

Ditto. I've never been one for finding the whole stereotypical macho "guys who cry are sissies"/prove their manhood by acting like jerks and doing stupid stuff/etc. type of attitude attractive. I'm into the sweet, sensitive, caring guys as well...I basically think a guy who treats people with respect and is kind-hearted and cares for his family and friends and all that, and who will only fight if it's in self-defense or defense of their loved ones, is a real man.

Angela

 

[BonosSaint]

Strength of character, independence, patience, humor, gentleness, honesty, physical presence, energy, sense of purpose, intelligence, nonconfrontational but not backing off either, helpful, generous, practical, a little arrogant. Sure of himself. Passionate about something.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Strength of character, independence, patience, humor, gentleness, honesty, physical presence, energy, sense of purpose, intelligence, nonconfrontational but not backing off either, helpful, generous, practical, a little arrogant. Sure of himself. Passionate about something.

Or, you know, what BonosSaint said . Put it better than I did.

Angela

 

[Irvine511]

Strength of character, independence, patience, humor, gentleness, honesty, physical presence, energy, sense of purpose, intelligence, nonconfrontational but not backing off either, helpful, generous, practical, a little arrogant. Sure of himself. Passionate about something.

these are all wonderful words, and i totally agree with you ... however we could use them to describe a person of either gender.

just for the sake of discussion, i suppose i'm just curious to see if there are traits/qualities out there that are almost exclusively masculine (and you might argue that to be exclusively mascuilne it would need a feminine antonym ... and these words could be used to describe a woman, but it might be a masculine trait ... or is this just getting waaaay too comlicated?)

from the ones you listed, i'd choose:

gentleness
physical presence
sure of himself

i think i might also add:

calmness/tranquility
strength at rest
clarity of vision
grumpy (think about it ... would you ever call a woman grumpy?)

 

[Bono's shades]

grumpy (think about it ... would you ever call a woman grumpy?)

You should see me sometime when I'm forced to get up at 5 a.m.!

Seriously, I have big problems with associating certain traits as "masculine" and others as "feminine." It just puts people in boxes and keeps them from being who they really are because they fear it isn't socially acceptable.

 

[nbcrusader]

grumpy (think about it ... would you ever call a woman grumpy?)

Take it from an old married guy - only from a distance...!

 

[BonosSaint]

these are all wonderful words, and i totally agree with you ... however we could use them to describe a person of either gender.

just for the sake of discussion, i suppose i'm just curious to see if there are traits/qualities out there that are almost exclusively masculine (and you might argue that to be exclusively mascuilne it would need a feminine antonym ... and these words could be used to describe a woman, but it might be a masculine trait ... or is this just getting waaaay too comlicated?)

from the ones you listed, i'd choose:

gentleness
physical presence
sure of himself

i think i might also add:

calmness/tranquility
strength at rest
clarity of vision
grumpy (think about it ... would you ever call a woman grumpy?)

Actually I think any of the qualities are gender-neutral. I would often associate gentleness with women, calmness. We are not taught to see that in men, so we notice it more. Women are grumpy, but they just call it bitchiness. As far as I'm concerned, only men are good at carrying out arrogance. There is a certain mathematical thinking that is almost exclusively male. I'm not sure I would agree with you on clarity of vision. If you want to break it down to a focused vision, singlemindedness, I would agree. That's a masculine trait. Work oriented. There is a male self-confidence often bordering on delusional. Women are usually less self-confident.

And perhaps what I meant earlier is that although the words can be used to describe either, I think there is a masculine humor, a masculine practicality, a masculine generosity that is totally different from a woman's.

I would guess if you want to consider exclusively male against exclusively female, I think it is the methodology rather than the traits themselves.

Clarify strength at rest. I think I understand it, but...

 

[For Honor]

great thread - i"ll come back tomorrow and read all of it.


Irvin has many good threads.

And I definitely feel an aura of insecurity about the war. Sometimes it is so easy to see when people react out of fear....

it's kind of sad

 

[sulawesigirl4]

Irvine, I think it's a fascinating idea for a new topic. Maybe you should start a new thread so we can discuss it apart from the whole "war" issue.

 

[A_Wanderer]

I think that the ridiculous attempts to feminise men by convincing them that they need to be "metrosexual" (read effeminate gay stereotype) and buy useless beauty products etc. were always going to fail. Bloody namby pamby wankers acting like girls to get a fuck is just not any way to act.

You want masculine try most movies with the following actors in them ~ Telly Savalis, Lee Marvin, Clint Eastwood, Charles Bronson, John Wayne etc.

And I say that fictional characters like Atticus Finch show the other honourable traits that should define masculinity, but these are just examples if I could be bothered then I would pull up a whole heap of real world examples rather than just movies and books.

 

[melon]

I think that the ridiculous attempts to feminise men by convincing them that they need to be "metrosexual" (read effeminate gay stereotype) and buy useless beauty products etc. were always going to fail. Bloody namby pamby wankers acting like girls to get a fuck is just not any way to act.

I have no bloody idea where you get the idea that "metrosexual" is some kind of "effeminate gay stereotype." Every one I've ever met has been very well adjusted, but just fashion conscious.

Frankly, I'd take that over the "masculine hetero stereotype"--lazy, fat, smelly, brutish men who expect their wives to mother them--anyday.

Melon

 

[DrTeeth]

You want masculine try most movies with the following actors in them ~ Telly Savalis, Lee Marvin, Clint Eastwood, Charles Bronson, John Wayne etc.

I hope you mean watching these actors' behaviour and then doing the exact opposite?

 

[A_Wanderer]

Firstly stereotypes are stereotypes while there are usually those that fit the bill there are more often than not the majority of normal people.

I stand by that statement on my own experiences with a few individuals who's attitudes and deeds were at best dishonest.

Grooming and presentation are fine but there was a general advertising campaign (which is what these trends are ultimately all about) to market an entire range of products to men that was based on this fanciful invention of men who spend more time on appearence than your average teenage girl. And it turns out that the vast majority or blokes didn't really go along with this in Australia, the ads dropped off the radar and bit by bit the products that arrived suddenly dissapeared just as quickly

Perhaps a historical context, you had the dandy's way back when, I suppose it was the 19th Century equivalent

 

[A_Wanderer]

I hope you mean watching these actors' behaviour and then doing the exact opposite?

Oh come on; Dirty Dozen, Kelly's Heroes, The Longest Day, Where Eagles Dare ~ The WW2 portion of the list.

Tough talk, bravado and shooting heroics are all in good fun, I am not saying that you should go out and emulate the characters, but these are "guy movies"

This topic deserves a thread of it's own.

 

[Irvine511]

And perhaps what I meant earlier is that although the words can be used to describe either, I think there is a masculine humor, a masculine practicality, a masculine generosity that is totally different from a woman's.

I would guess if you want to consider exclusively male against exclusively female, I think it is the methodology rather than the traits themselves.

Clarify strength at rest. I think I understand it, but...

i absolutely agree -- sorry if that wasn't clear. there's no question that a woman can have masculine traits, and a man can have feminine traits (hey, i taught pre-school, i'm pretty damn nurturing!). what i was interested in was what these traits were (the masculine ones) and why they are specifically masculine.

i will start a thread. might take me a bit to get around to it.

as for strength at rest ... i suppose it's somewhere along the lines of a gentle giant thing, the idea of, say, a big burly man pushing a child gently on a swing, sort of the contrast between a strong body pursuing a gentle activity.

sorry, not terribly clear ...

 

[Irvine511]

Frankly, I'd take that over the "masculine hetero stereotype"--lazy, fat, smelly, brutish men who expect their wives to mother them--anyday.

just as a piece of anecdotal evidence ... i was in a gay club with one of my best girlfriends about a year or so ago. for any girl who's never been in a gay bar or club, you're missing out on a big group of well-groomed, buffed, shined, and polished men (not that all gay men are as such, but those who go to bars usually are) who *aren't* going to try and grab your ass.

anyway, after a few moments, i said something about straight bars, and she said, "Straight bars? Let me tell you about straight bars. Their filled with fat, drunken assholes!"

to wich the only other woman in the club, who happened to be walking by, said, "i hear you, sister!"

and they high-fived.

it was a funny moment.

 

[joyfulgirl]

anyway, after a few moments, i said something about straight bars, and she said, "Straight bars? Let me tell you about straight bars. Their filled with fat, drunken assholes!"

It's true! Which is why it's so hard for single women to meet single men--there really isn't a place that works the way that gay clubs work for gay men. Where I live, I wouldn't darken the doorway of bars/clubs frequented by straight men (for the purpose of meeting men, anyway), and the cool bars are always taken over by the gay community so even though my town technically doesn't have an exclusively gay bar, the only cool one in town does in fact have a predominantly gay clientele (along with their straight girlfriends) and buff guys go-go dancing in thongs. I did meet a cute straight man there once after he rejected the advances of my gay friend and we were planning to go out but then I googled him and learned that he was listed as a missing person in Denmark along with other sketchy details so I can't even trust the straight men in gay bars now! LOL, some of you may remember that story from Zoo Confessionals years ago...Moral of the story, always google before dating.

 

[Irvine511]

...Moral of the story, always google before dating.

yes, absolutely.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Hehe, well, at this time, I'm too young to go into a bar (that'll change come October), but even when I turn 21, I'm not gonna be a club/bar hopper myself. I tend to meet nice, intelligent, cute guys at places like coffeeshops and school and places like that. So my advice to single women: forget the clubs and bars, try a coffeehouse ! Heh.

Angela

 

[peacepandemic]

Thank God for this thread..I was depressed before and now Im drunk on mirth.

President Bush's sock stuffed crotch...what a wonderful advertisement for the American way of life.

Ahh women vs men and men vs women ..what an oh so important scientific debate....

Every woman Ive ever known has been headstrong and obstinate, some have been insecure, many have been irrational, a few have been loyal, but all have ultimately unfathomable. To generalize them to one adjective does them a disservice. If you are going to generalize men or women in some hateful or loving term...blame their parents first... most people are what their parents made them and few are who they want to be and even fewer treat others as they could tolerate being treated themselves.

Being a guy, I love women. More often than not their irrationality brings me cascades and avalanches of chuckles in life. I used to get "wakeup" phone calls every morning from this married woman who wanted to have an affair with me (I wasnt having it) but just the sheer irrationality of her thought process was hilarious to me...good times..good times...she wasnt a half bad friend either as far as comedy goes...very witty girl.

Men can be superficial and women can be superficial. Both sexes can be clueless too...so when the old gender debate heats up...as in when women say "men are stupid" and men counter with "Women are bad drivers"....well Ive seen it all in the world and both sexes are equally guilty on a person by person basis....Both sexes SHOULD learn to respect each other unconditionally instead of engaging in pointless comparisons that do nothing but erode societal relations that humans very much do not want to erode...ultimately men and women want to have sex with each other and all the crapping on about who is better is just a minor ego salve for the fact that neither can have sex with every person he/she wants and neither can deal with the fact that men and women have to work together in the workplace.

Also the myth that women are more mature than men or better workers...unfounded....its a case by case basis.....leah fastow of Enron helped hubby bilk individual investors out of billions...not very mature or ethical and we wont even discuss carly fiorina of HP, meg whitman of ebay, or numerous other estrogen offenders...

Ultimately, no gender generalities hold universally true. You have to take each person on a case by case basis.